Help find a city close to SLC best for non-LDS (Salt Lake City: garden, moving)

[kaytidid]

Katz-I am always interested in learning new things...why exactly are hot drinks prohibited?

[SouthernBelleInUtah]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

How can something so "obvious" be inaccurate? I don't know, but it can. The LDS Church has never, ever, ever, said that the intent of the rule prohibiting "hot drinks" is to avoid caffeine, and that is the truth. Trust me. "Hot drinks" has always (essentially since the revelation was given back in 1838) been interpreted to mean "coffee and tea." Caffeine has never been specified as the "intent" of the law. True, coffee and tea both contain caffeine, but that's not much more than a coincidence in terms of the doctrine. Since the Word of Wisdom (as the health code is known) has been interpreted by the LDS Church leadership as prohibiting tea and coffee specifically, iced tea and coffee are also prohibited. Caffeinated soft drinks are not.

Now, that's the "letter of the law." The whole point of the Word of Wisdom is to provide a directive counseling us as to how best to take care of our bodies to remain healthy. As most people know, it also forbids alcohol and tobacco. What most non-Mormons don't realize is what it advises us to eat -- a diet high in fruits, vegetables and whole grains, and meat in moderation. Not such bad advise.

Can't rep you again so soon but that is a very informative post - thanks!

[frogandtoad]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

How can something so "obvious" be inaccurate? I don't know, but it can. The LDS Church has never, ever, ever, said that the intent of the rule prohibiting "hot drinks" is to avoid caffeine, and that is the truth. Trust me. "Hot drinks" has always (essentially since the revelation was given back in 1838) been interpreted to mean "coffee and tea." Caffeine has never been specified as the "intent" of the law. True, coffee and tea both contain caffeine, but that's not much more than a coincidence in terms of the doctrine. Since the Word of Wisdom (as the health code is known) has been interpreted by the LDS Church leadership as prohibiting tea and coffee specifically, iced tea and coffee are also prohibited. Caffeinated soft drinks are not.

Now, that's the "letter of the law." The whole point of the Word of Wisdom is to provide a directive counseling us as to how best to take care of our bodies to remain healthy. As most people know, it also forbids alcohol and tobacco. What most non-Mormons don't realize is what it advises us to eat -- a diet high in fruits, vegetables and whole grains, and meat in moderation. Not such bad advise.

I would have to disagree that it's "obvious." We have some very devout LDS neighbors who have told us it is the intent to avoid caffeine. You may be right that it's not, I have no idea, but it's not "obvious" to all LDS, that I know. We had a conversation just a couple of weeks ago where they were all in agreement that this was the intent, and therefore would drink sprite and other uncaffeinated drinks but not coke, etc. Not all LDS are on the same page as you with this one.

I'm not trying to be argumentative--I'm not LDS and have no idea. I'm just going by what they said. I have a question to you though--so if hot drinks are not allowed (whether in addition to caffeine or whether that is the only intent of the coffee/tea thing), what about things like hot milk, hot lemon water, etc? I'm curious, not trying to cause an argument. There are plenty of healthy hot drinks (in fact even coffee and tea have been shown to have positive health benefits but let's even leave coffee/black tea out of it for the purpose of this question). Are hot drinks like herbal teas, lemon water, milk, etc. allowed? Just curious.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by kaytidid

Katz-I am always interested in learning new things...why exactly are hot drinks prohibited?

As far as I know, there has never been a reason given why "hot drinks" per se are prohibited. I just know that the phrase "hot drinks" specifically refers to tea and coffee.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by frogandtoad

I would have to disagree that it's "obvious."

Okay. I just said what I did in response to your comment, "Your assumption is not as obviously erroneous as it has been made to seem." I guess I was messed up. It comes from drinking so much chilled caffeine, I guess.

We have some very devout LDS neighbors who have told us it is the intent to avoid caffeine. You may be right that it's not, I have no idea, but it's not "obvious" to all LDS, that I know. We had a conversation just a couple of weeks ago where they were all in agreement that this was the intent, and therefore would drink sprite and other uncaffeinated drinks but not coke, etc. Not all LDS are on the same page as you with this one.

That's true. They're not. But the ones who aren't are wrong.

I'm not trying to be argumentative--I'm not LDS and have no idea. I'm just going by what they said. I have a question to you though--so if hot drinks are not allowed (whether in addition to caffeine or whether that is the only intent of the coffee/tea thing), what about things like hot milk, hot lemon water, etc? I'm curious, not trying to cause an argument. There are plenty of healthy hot drinks (in fact even coffee and tea have been shown to have positive health benefits but let's even leave coffee/black tea out of it for the purpose of this question). Are hot drinks like herbal teas, lemon water, milk, etc. allowed? Just curious.

That's a good question. I realize it seems kind of contradictory, but hot milk, hot lemon water (yuch to both of them) and hot soup (yum!) are okay -- even if you drink the soup and don't use a spoon. It's seriously an issue that there is a wide variety of opinions on. I would say that virtually all Mormons would agree that tea and coffee are forbidden. Beyond that, we all have our own opinions.

[Katzpur]

In case anybody's interested, here is the text of the revelation known as "The Word of Wisdom":

A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion -- To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days -- Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation -- That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make. And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies. And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill. And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man -- Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving. Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine. All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth; And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger. All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground -- Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

[frogandtoad]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

In case anybody's interested, here is the text of the revelation known as "The Word of Wisdom":


Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation -- That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make. And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies. And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill. And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
.

Funny but this actually makes me think that it's not caffeine or coffee/tea that is the issue!! It says "AGAIN, hot drinks are not for the body or belly." But nowhere in that passage did it say if for the first time. It was saying no "strong" drinks, and no wine. So perhaps "hot" was just another word for "strong"? Over and over it says no wine, then says "AGAIN, no hot drinks." I don't see how the jump to coffee/tea is made from this passage. Seems to me that whole section is about wine.

Which begs the next question...so if it specifically says no wine, but does not say no vodka (for example), why do LDS not drink vodka? Presumably it is because they have decided that the "thing" in wine which is "bad" is alcohol, right? Therefore no alcohol, in any form, should be taken.

So, from there where I'd go w/this is that if the hot drink passage means no tea/coffee (which unless there is another section referring to it making it more clear, I don't think that passage has anything to do with coffee or tea, I think it's all about wine!), but anyway, if that means no tea/coffee, then presumably one would do the same thing here as they did with wine. Ask "what about this is a problem? There must be something for it to be forbidden." So what is the answer? The only potentially problematic thing in both tea/coffee is caffeine, right? So it makes total sense to me that you would expand that to mean no caffeine (esp. as sodas weren't around to forbid when this was written, so you have to go with intention).

If no wine=no alcohol at all, then shouldn't no coffee/tea=no caffeine at all? Otherwise, you could argue it's fine to have Kahlua on the rocks, just not wine!

But really, do people ever question the whole coffee/tea thing? From a completely outsider reading (first time I've ever seen this passage), I do not get at all that anything other than alcohol is being referred to, which honestly would make much more sense anyway. If you think about it, all the things suggested here are right: eat well, don't smoke, take care of your body, don't drink. Those all make sense. Don't drink tea/coffee? Taht would be a really odd thing to go in with the others as tea/coffee are not bad for your body and can have healthful benefits. I guess the no caffeine thing is *possibly* what was meant, but then that wouldn' tbe just tea/coffee. And it still seems like a huge leap to go from a discussion on not drinking wine, to saying don't drink strong drinks, don't drink hot drinks to get to no coffee/tea. Seems like "hot drinks" was another way of saying alcohol. Maybe b/c it sets your mouth/stomach on fire if you have a shot of moonshine type stuff!

[frogandtoad]

OK this is totally fascinating to me now! I want to do more research just b/c it's interesting. So I have looked up what hot drinks meant in the 1800s and what I'm finding is that "hot drinks" referred to alcoholic beverages mixed with coffee, tea, or hot chocolate. So, esp. given the location of the reference to hot drinks (right next to wine), does it not make sense that what was being referred to is NOT the actual coffee/tea, but rather the alcohol mixed in with it??

[kaytidid]

Keep going frogandtoad, I am fascinated also! Love, love, love learning about different cultures and beliefs!

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by frogandtoad

Funny but this actually makes me think that it's not caffeine or coffee/tea that is the issue!! It says "AGAIN, hot drinks are not for the body or belly." But nowhere in that passage did it say if for the first time. It was saying no "strong" drinks, and no wine. So perhaps "hot" was just another word for "strong"? Over and over it says no wine, then says "AGAIN, no hot drinks." I don't see how the jump to coffee/tea is made from this passage. Seems to me that whole section is about wine.

I don't think the word "again" can be interpreted quite like you'd expect it to. I know it sounds like it means what you're saying it means, but I think it means something more along the lines of "likewise."

Which begs the next question...so if it specifically says no wine, but does not say no vodka (for example), why do LDS not drink vodka? Presumably it is because they have decided that the "thing" in wine which is "bad" is alcohol, right? Therefore no alcohol, in any form, should be taken.

"Strong drink" refers to hard liquor.

So, from there where I'd go w/this is that if the hot drink passage means no tea/coffee (which unless there is another section referring to it making it more clear, I don't think that passage has anything to do with coffee or tea, I think it's all about wine!), but anyway, if that means no tea/coffee, then presumably one would do the same thing here as they did with wine. Ask "what about this is a problem? There must be something for it to be forbidden." So what is the answer? The only potentially problematic thing in both tea/coffee is caffeine, right? So it makes total sense to me that you would expand that to mean no caffeine (esp. as sodas weren't around to forbid when this was written, so you have to go with intention).

What I "go with," Froggy, is the Church leadership's interpretation on the subject. Granted, it makes sense to assume that no tea and no coffee means no caffeine. Granted, caffeine probably isn't good for you. I'm just reinterating what the members of the Church have been told for the last 180 years.

But really, do people ever question the whole coffee/tea thing? From a completely outsider reading (first time I've ever seen this passage), I do not get at all that anything other than alcohol is being referred to, which honestly would make much more sense anyway. If you think about it, all the things suggested here are right: eat well, don't smoke, take care of your body, don't drink. Those all make sense. Don't drink tea/coffee? Taht would be a really odd thing to go in with the others as tea/coffee are not bad for your body and can have healthful benefits. I guess the no caffeine thing is *possibly* what was meant, but then that wouldn' tbe just tea/coffee. And it still seems like a huge leap to go from a discussion on not drinking wine, to saying don't drink strong drinks, don't drink hot drinks to get to no coffee/tea. Seems like "hot drinks" was another way of saying alcohol. Maybe b/c it sets your mouth/stomach on fire if you have a shot of moonshine type stuff!

I suppose that if, as a member of the Church, I were reading this for the first time and had never heard the teaching discussed, I might be persuaded that you've got a good point. Having heard it taught all my life, I know what it means and see no reason to try to re-interpret it to suit myself. (Besides, I hate tea and coffee. On the other hand, if I could occasionally have a glass of wine with my dinner without feeling guilty, I'd love it. If I were going to try to make the Word of Wisdom say what I'd like it to say, I'd start by trying to find a way about the prohibition against wine. )