Ogden, really that bad? / nice area with small homes? (Salt Lake City: real estate, 2010)

[Vulcan Rider]

I am moving to the SLC area starting my job August 3rd. It is just my son and I and he will be gone in 4-5 more years. As I look around I find a lot of cute little bungalow homes with two car garage, which is what I want, for very reasonable prices but everyone tells me every one of them is in a neighorhood I don't want to be in. These seems particularly true of homes I find in Ogden. If I do bird's eye view on MSN maps or street level on google maps these neighborhoods look perectly clean and charming to me.

I don't need to keep up with the jones' or live my life house poor. I obviously don't want my son to be living in some crime ridden gang infested neighborhood either.

Someone help me out here. Where is an older neighborhood, with small single level homes, two car garage, and safe streets and schools.

And Ogden...I know nobody that lives in Ogden but all my friend who do not say it is not a nice town. Please, someone who lives there, loves it, has teenagers, and feels safe give me a shout.

[osugirl2]

Originally Posted by Vulcan Rider

I am moving to the SLC area starting my job August 3rd. It is just my son and I and he will be gone in 4-5 more years. As I look around I find a lot of cute little bungalow homes with two car garage, which is what I want, for very reasonable prices but everyone tells me every one of them is in a neighorhood I don't want to be in. These seems particularly true of homes I find in Ogden. If I do bird's eye view on MSN maps or street level on google maps these neighborhoods look perectly clean and charming to me.

I don't need to keep up with the jones' or live my life house poor. I obviously don't want my son to be living in some crime ridden gang infested neighborhood either.

Someone help me out here. Where is an older neighborhood, with small single level homes, two car garage, and safe streets and schools.

And Ogden...I know nobody that lives in Ogden but all my friend who do not say it is not a nice town. Please, someone who lives there, loves it, has teenagers, and feels safe give me a shout.

I am moving to the Ogden area about the same time as you. I've noticed that the homes east of downtown in both South and North Ogden seem very nice. I went and looked at an older remodeled property near downtown Ogden in April. Wonderful house, and the neighborhood is being "revitalized" but not quite revitilized enough for me yet! Several of the people I'll be working with live in North Ogden, and say that they love it there!

[markg91359]

I have worked in Ogden for the last twenty years. This is my advice: If you can afford it buy a home in either South Ogden or North Ogden. Riverdale and Roy are also good choices. If you absolutely must buy a home in Ogden than I would suggest you buy something east of Harrison Boulevard, the closer to Weber State University, the better. This is not a really large area, but if I had to live there its what I'd do.

I give you these suggestions for these reasons:

1. Ogden is a city that is becoming racially polarized. You have a growing Hispanic population and a declining white population that is largely older.

2. If you drive through Ogden, you'll notice a dearth or absence of basic services such as chain grocery stores, very few real restaurants, and no retail shopping in the downtown area. South of 36th Street it gets better, but that is South Ogden. North of 12th Street it gets better too, but by than you are almost in North Ogden.

3. The schools are poor in downtown Ogden. They have high drop out rates, high teenage pregnancy rates, and other social problems.

4. There are a large number of abandoned homes, foreclosed homes, and homes that are falling apart in the downtown areas.

5. There is a serious gang problem.

6. The Ogden Police Department struggles. It does a good job, but is faced with rising crime rates and decreasing budgets that require that they not replace officers retiring and such.

7. Some redevelopment has occurred over the years. The current mayor really has tried very hard to save the city. However, the economic fundamentals are against Ogden. Its the other cities in the county that have thrived.

I hope this information helps even if its not what you hoped to hear.

[Vulcan Rider]

Yes it is....on both accounts

Originally Posted by markg91359

I hope this information helps even if its not what you hoped to hear.

[JPeterson]

Vulcan,

I live at 22nd and Jefferson Ave. in DOWNTOWN Ogden.

MargG is likely a thin-skinned suburbanite with little tolerance for urban living. As a man with four children living in downtown Ogdenfor 5 years now, I can tell you that some of the things Mark has said are not true or gross exagerations. Lets take him point by point:

1. Racial polarization - Ogden is a mix of about 30% hispanic, 10% african american, and 60% white. Its a very diverse community. It is not on the verge of a race war. Young income-producing people ARE moving into the city. As a real estate broker I have helped many move in. The city is trending younger with higher income. What Markg is suggesting is the trend from the 1990s when he worked in the city. You can't teach old dogs like him new tricks.

2. Dearth of Services - Mark is referring to a section of town that is two miles wide. We have room for maybe one more grocery store. Walmart will be completed in 2010 so that fills the void. Suburban malls are one mile away.

3. Schools - the schools in Ogden are subpar. Schools in Utah are subpar. My wife skipped half of her senior year and got A's. If you want your kid to be super educated, have them read books in their spare time. Utah schools are not in good shape no matter where you go.

4. Abandoned Homes - only a few, only in some of the worst neighborhoods. Mark is exaggerating on this one.

5. Gang - another exaggeration. The gang problem in Ogden is wimpy in comparison to SLC or any other metro area. Most of these kids are wannabe's. Ogden Crime IS LESS than SLC.

6. Police Dept - Mark is again talking out his backside. See the stats on crime. The stats show a decrease year over year for the last while. Crime is definitely down. Our police department is doing an excellent job.

7. Economic fundamentals - Mark is totally wrong here. The fundamentals ARE IN FAVOR of Ogden. It has the newest redevelopment, the most affordable living, all the amenities, and the capital improvements in the city are irrevocable. The BDO is at 90% capacity with more business announcing moves to Ogden. The fundamentals were not in favor of Ogden in 2000. Today they are.

Vulcan - if you want to see what Ogden is about go to
Ogden Insights

The area that would suit you best would be between 26th and 30th Streets and Gramercy and Harrison Blvd. There are cute SAFE neighborhoods with lots of cute brick bungalows. Check out the blog and I can point you in the right direction.

[markg91359]

Vulcan,

I live at 22nd and Jefferson Ave. in DOWNTOWN Ogden.

MargG is likely a thin-skinned suburbanite with little tolerance for urban living. As a man with four children living in downtown Ogdenfor 5 years now, I can tell you that some of the things Mark has said are not true or gross exagerations. Lets take him point by point:

1. Racial polarization - Ogden is a mix of about 30% hispanic, 10% african american, and 60% white. Its a very diverse community. It is not on the verge of a race war. Young income-producing people ARE moving into the city. As a real estate broker I have helped many move in. The city is trending younger with higher income. What Markg is suggesting is the trend from the 1990s when he worked in the city. You can't teach old dogs like him new tricks.

2. Dearth of Services - Mark is referring to a section of town that is two miles wide. We have room for maybe one more grocery store. Walmart will be completed in 2010 so that fills the void. Suburban malls are one mile away.

3. Schools - the schools in Ogden are subpar. Schools in Utah are subpar. My wife skipped half of her senior year and got A's. If you want your kid to be super educated, have them read books in their spare time. Utah schools are not in good shape no matter where you go.

4. Abandoned Homes - only a few, only in some of the worst neighborhoods. Mark is exaggerating on this one.

5. Gang - another exaggeration. The gang problem in Ogden is wimpy in comparison to SLC or any other metro area. Most of these kids are wannabe's. Ogden Crime IS LESS than SLC.

6. Police Dept - Mark is again talking out his backside. See the stats on crime. The stats show a decrease year over year for the last while. Crime is definitely down. Our police department is doing an excellent job.

7. Economic fundamentals - Mark is totally wrong here. The fundamentals ARE IN FAVOR of Ogden. It has the newest redevelopment, the most affordable living, all the amenities, and the capital improvements in the city are irrevocable. The BDO is at 90% capacity with more business announcing moves to Ogden. The fundamentals were not in favor of Ogden in 2000. Today they are.

Vulcan - if you want to see what Ogden is about go to
Ogden Insights

The area that would suit you best would be between 26th and 30th Streets and Gramercy and Harrison Blvd. There are cute SAFE neighborhoods with lots of cute brick bungalows. Check out the blog and I can point you in the right direction.

.................................................. ................................................

I will note at the outset of my reply (and I hope Vulcan will as well) that you are a real estate broker. I presume you have quite a number of listings in Ogden and it probably perturbs you that someone would be as direct as I have been about living in Ogden. I have no financial stake or motivation to encourage or discourage people from moving to Ogden. I have lived in Weber and Davis counties most of my life. You can accuse me of talking out of my rearend until Kingdom comes. It doesn't change the fact that this is an area that I am particularly knowledgable about.

I think its important to take note of something I will call the "Polyanna Mentality". The Polyanna Mentality holds that happiness is largely a measure of something internal. Externalities such as high crime rates, abandoned homes, unemployment rates, and the absence of services are poo-pooed. There is nothing wrong with trying to be optimistic. However, being an optimist can and sometimes does prevent people from seeing a situation for what it is and more importantly trying to fix it. Not enough of the people who live in Ogden are willing to see what has happened to their community and try to fix it.

Ogden is in trouble. Some progress has been made in recent years due to an energetic mayor and some other good people. However, all that can't make up for the fact that from 1960-1970, Ogden's major employer, the railroads, collapsed. This would be ancient history, except the city has never recovered. The prevailing mentality among residents seems to be keep taxes low, bury your head in the sand, and get angry when people point out the deterioration in your city. I've seen people like you before. Respectfully, I think you are in denial.

1. The racial polarization thing is real. Within the last thirty days two young college-attending caucasian men were essentially murdered by two Hispanic burglars who were being chased by the police. Their car was broadsided and they both died at the accident scene. This is just the latest incident. Other incidents include gang shootings and homicides.

2. Dearth of Services. Explain what if any shopping is available between 12th and 36th Streets. All you can find are convenience stores and gas stations. Alot of stores have closed in this area over the years.

3. You concede my point about subpar schools. I will submit the schools next door in Davis County are more than a cut above Ogden schools.

4. Abandoned homes. Are you serious there are only a few? Drive around and open your eyes.

5. Gangs. Ogden Police identified 1800 gang members in Weber County in 2004. The total county population is about 200,000.

6. I suspect that the crime rate has fallen in Ogden because nationally it fell from about 1995 to 2005. What this leaves out is how bad it still is. The 2004 FBI Uniform Crime report states that the homicide rate in Ogden was 5 per 100,000. This compares to 2.2 per 100,000 in the rest of Utah. The overall violent crime rate (robbery, homicide, assaults) was 438 per 100,000 in Ogden. This compares with 271 per 100,000 in the rest of Utah.

7. Economic fundamentals. Hopefully, they will improve overtime. Don't forget we are in a serious recession right now.

As a real estate agent compare the increase in home values from 1996 to 2006 in Ogden with homes in Davis County. I bet we both know a home in Davis County is a better investment.

[Chango]

I would rather live in downtown Ogden than downtown SLC. I almost bought an old victorian mansion for cheap on 25th st, but decided to go to Davis county instead, mostly because I had to commute to SLC and it would have been a hellacious drive. I would have loved to own that house though...

I still think there is a fair chance Ogden will gentrify; there is some beautiful architecture and a lot of potential. It's not there yet though, and has a bad rep in the rest of the state. but Salt Lake City is far more dangerous AND expensive.

[JPeterson]

Markg,

Perhaps Vulcan can see Ogden for himself and judge. Ogden bottomed out in 2002. We are at the beginning of a 30+ year economic recovery. The trend WAS down and NOW IS UP. You will have passed on in 30 years but myself and my kids will spend that time making Ogden a better place to live. If more people like you would actually do something (like we have) instead of complaining, this city would be light years ahead of where it is. See what we have done already:

Historic Restoration Photos - Before and After

THIS is what people need to be doing in the city instead of pointing out everything they don't like.

FYI: Property values in Downtown Ogden have nearly DOUBLED in 7 years! When you start low its easy to increase. A 100% return isn't bad is it? Of course you have to have good economic perspective to understand why this is the case. If all you think about is 1960-2002 there isnt much that preaching will do to correct an overly pessemistic attitude.

[osugirl2]

Originally Posted by JPeterson

Markg,

Perhaps Vulcan can see Ogden for himself and judge. Ogden bottomed out in 2002. We are at the beginning of a 30+ year economic recovery. The trend WAS down and NOW IS UP. You will have passed on in 30 years but myself and my kids will spend that time making Ogden a better place to live. If more people like you would actually do something (like we have) instead of complaining, this city would be light years ahead of where it is. See what we have done already:

Historic Restoration Photos - Before and After

THIS is what people need to be doing in the city instead of pointing out everything they don't like.

FYI: Property values in Downtown Ogden have nearly DOUBLED in 7 years! When you start low its easy to increase. A 100% return isn't bad is it? Of course you have to have good economic perspective to understand why this is the case. If all you think about is 1960-2002 there isnt much that preaching will do to correct an overly pessemistic attitude.

I think Mark is hopeful (rather than pessimistic) he's just trying to point out the problems that he thinks exist. Personally, I went to scope out a home in downtown Ogden in April. It was still just a bit too much for me. The houses around will still run down and the fence around the one I was looking at was painted white but you could still clearly see the graffiti showing through. I'm not saying that the neighborhood was dangerous, but personally it was still in need of quite a bit of revitalizing for my personal taste. I'm sure that compared to other inner city areas, Ogden is pristine, and as far as investment puposes, downtown Ogden is where it's probably at, but I personally wouldn't be comfortable with my two year old son there. Again, just my two cents and not slamming you in any way JPetersen

[JPeterson]

Hey again. Ogden isn't necessarily for everyone. My kids are all under the age of 7 but the sacrifice is we don't let them play with all the neighbor kids. We set play dates with other families that we know and share the same values. Ogden is an urban setting and most folks in Utah simply don't understand or prefer the dynamics of an urban setting. We moved to Downtown from Roy because we preferred the city over suburban malaise. Just a personal preference.

The Salt Lake Tribune had this to say about Ogden recently:
Love Mayor Godfrey or hate him, he gets credit for energizing Ogden - Salt Lake Tribune

Hopefully this will give some insight into the conversation.