Travis' line in the sand - fact or fiction? (Houston: for sale, movies)

[ancient warrior]

Perhaps someone from the San Antonio area or Texas in general can shed some light on the following.

While in the Air Force, I visited the Alamo.

As you recall, during the Battle of the Alamo, March 6, 1836, Col William B. Travis is said to have drawn a line in the dirt (or sand depending on the account) with his saber, and 179 of the 180 defenders crossed over the line thus demonstrating a willingness to sacrifice their lives for Texas’ freedom which they did later.

Traditionally, there were no survivors of the battle of the Alamo, but records of that period show that there were about forty (their names are listed on-line). Most were the wives and slaves of the soldiers, merchants, etc. One was a defender of the Alamo, a Mexican, who convinced the victors that he had only been a prisoner of war. Louis Roses was the defender who left before the final battle. Later, the 40 survivors were extensively interviewed by the press and even, evidently, by a commission. None made any mention of Travis’ line in the sand.

The story of the line in the sand was first published in 1873 by a William Zuber, a journalist and historian, in a writing titled An Escape from the Alamo. It was supposedly based on a claim of what Louis Rose told someone who related the story. Zuber later admitted that he had made up much of Travis’ exhortations, which obviously had not been recorded. In 1888 the History of Texas for Schools was published for all Texas school children that contained even further embellishments.

Is anyone aware of evidence supporting the line in the sand story?

[TrapperL]

Yep
http://www.thealamo.org/battle/battle.phpp

The history also includes about 60-70 surviving men that made a run for it to escape the killing only to run into a division of Mexican Cavalry. There were no survivors of that attempt. If you will read the letters from witnesses, there were several survivors of the battle. Among them was D Crockett. Crockett pleaded for quarter to Santa Anna but the Mexican Gov't position was these fighters were no better than pirates and would not be spared. The letters claim that Crockett and the others were immediately taken out and shot. Their bodies burned in front of the chapel. In one of the many pics I have of the Alamo, one shows the 18lb cannon that was on the southeast wall. It appears that the cannon had been burned along with ruble. I've wondered if this was the place where they burned the bodies. Records do not tell where. Here's the Alamo before the US Army took it over, remodeled it, put a roof on and used it for a quartermaster headquarters.

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by TrapperL

Yep
http://www.thealamo.org/battle/battle.phpp

The history also includes about 60-70 surviving men that made a run for it to escape the killing only to run into a division of Mexican Cavalry. There were no survivors of that attempt. If you will read the letters from witnesses, there were several survivors of the battle. Among them was D Crockett. Crockett pleaded for quarter to Santa Anna but the Mexican Gov't position was these fighters were no better than pirates and would not be spared. The letters claim that Crockett and the others were immediately taken out and shot. Their bodies burned in front of the chapel. In one of the many pics I have of the Alamo, one shows the 18lb cannon that was on the southeast wall. It appears that the cannon had been burned along with ruble. I've wondered if this was the place where they burned the bodies. Records do not tell where. Here's the Alamo before the US Army took it over, remodeled it, put a roof on and used it for a quartermaster headquarters.

REPLY:

I didn't find any history of the "line in the sand" in the website you posted. Perhaps you can cite the passage specifically and tell us the source.

[TexasRedneck]

I did - are you here to argue or find an answer? Go back and read it again.

[Cuero]

OP has opened a can of worms. There is really no evidence one way or the other.

THE ALAMO - Table of Contents

[TrapperL]

If the link took you to a short page, you would need to click on "The Battle". From the Alamo's website:

On February 23, 1836, the arrival of General Antonio López de Santa Anna's army outside San Antonio nearly caught them by surprise. Undaunted, the Texians and Tejanos prepared to defend the Alamo together. The defenders held out for 13 days against Santa Anna's army. William B. Travis, the commander of the Alamo sent forth couriers carrying pleas for help to communities in Texas. On the eighth day of the siege, a band of 32 volunteers from Gonzales arrived, bringing the number of defenders to nearly two hundred. Legend holds that with the possibility of additional help fading, Colonel Travis drew a line on the ground and asked any man willing to stay and fight to step over — all except one did. As the defenders saw it, the Alamo was the key to the defense of Texas, and they were ready to give their lives rather than surrender their position to General Santa Anna. Among the Alamo's garrison were Jim Bowie, renowned knife fighter, and David Crockett, famed frontiersman and former congressman from Tennessee.

There is really no evidence one way or the other.

History as we all know is written by the winner. It can also be written as something romantic. In the case of the Alamo, there's no direct history other than letters written by witnesses. Using that as a yardstick, yes, the line in the sand happened. But since there were no survivors except one named Louis Rose who claims to have witnessed it, his is the only account of it happening. You have history as documented by one Mexican soldiers diary and others but obviously they weren't inside the Alamo to have witnessed the line in the sand. According to Rose who was there inside the Alamo, it happened. Did it for real? That conformation died with the last bullet fired.
Louis "Moses" Rose

[ranchodrive]

Originally Posted by TrapperL

If the link took you to a short page, you would need to click on "The Battle". From the Alamo's website:

On February 23, 1836, the arrival of General Antonio López de Santa Anna's army outside San Antonio nearly caught them by surprise. Undaunted, the Texians and Tejanos prepared to defend the Alamo together. The defenders held out for 13 days against Santa Anna's army. William B. Travis, the commander of the Alamo sent forth couriers carrying pleas for help to communities in Texas. On the eighth day of the siege, a band of 32 volunteers from Gonzales arrived, bringing the number of defenders to nearly two hundred. Legend holds that with the possibility of additional help fading, Colonel Travis drew a line on the ground and asked any man willing to stay and fight to step over — all except one did. As the defenders saw it, the Alamo was the key to the defense of Texas, and they were ready to give their lives rather than surrender their position to General Santa Anna. Among the Alamo's garrison were Jim Bowie, renowned knife fighter, and David Crockett, famed frontiersman and former congressman from Tennessee.


History as we all know is written by the winner. It can also be written as something romantic. In the case of the Alamo, there's no direct history other than letters written by witnesses. Using that as a yardstick, yes, the line in the sand happened. But since there were no survivors except one named Louis Rose who claims to have witnessed it, his is the only account of it happening. You have history as documented by one Mexican soldiers diary and others but obviously they weren't inside the Alamo to have witnessed the line in the sand. According to Rose who was there inside the Alamo, it happened. Did it for real? That conformation died with the last bullet fired.
Louis "Moses" Rose

During the sesquicentennial ceremony in front of the Alamo.
Relatives of David Crockett were there in attendance. I asked
them if they might provide some information that the public was
not aware of. With regards to his death , was he killed during the
battle or captured & later executed ?
They answered that news of events took a long time in those days.
It was months before word got to them. No one documented this
until many years later with many different interpretations.
I remember the man saying something like ..." they all died so long
ago, no one will ever know for sure exactly how except that
he was killed at a place called Alamo in Bejar ".

I'm no expert...just my 2¢ is all.

Others with better knowledge of Texas History will provide
a better account.

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by Cuero

OP has opened a can of worms. There is really no evidence one way or the other.

THE ALAMO - Table of Contents

Reply:

"Legend holds that with the possibility of additional help fading, Colonel Travis drew a line on the ground and asked any man willing to stay and fight to step over — all except one did."

That's the point. If such an event had really happened, there would be some evidence given by some of the 40 survivors of the seige of the Alamo. Since there isn't, it seems we can resonably conclude it's just a legend which developed about thirty years after the event.

[swahili]

Leon Hale, a columnist for the Houston Chronicle once said the story was spread through the book TEXAS HISTORY MOVIES, a book that we would now classify as a "graphic novel." Essentially a comic book with a hard cover, it was distributed free to school children in Texas by a private company. You can find a lot of information about the book on the internet, and it is still for sale on Amazon. I've also seen it in used book stores.

-swahili

[albert soliz]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

Perhaps someone from the San Antonio area or Texas in general can shed some light on the following.

While in the Air Force, I visited the Alamo.

As you recall, during the Battle of the Alamo, March 6, 1836, Col William B. Travis is said to have drawn a line in the dirt (or sand depending on the account) with his saber, and 179 of the 180 defenders crossed over the line thus demonstrating a willingness to sacrifice their lives for Texas’ freedom which they did later.

Traditionally, there were no survivors of the battle of the Alamo, but records of that period show that there were about forty (their names are listed on-line). Most were the wives and slaves of the soldiers, merchants, etc. One was a defender of the Alamo, a Mexican, who convinced the victors that he had only been a prisoner of war. Louis Roses was the defender who left before the final battle. Later, the 40 survivors were extensively interviewed by the press and even, evidently, by a commission. None made any mention of Travis’ line in the sand.

The story of the line in the sand was first published in 1873 by a William Zuber, a journalist and historian, in a writing titled An Escape from the Alamo. It was supposedly based on a claim of what Louis Rose told someone who related the story. Zuber later admitted that he had made up much of Travis’ exhortations, which obviously had not been recorded. In 1888 the History of Texas for Schools was published for all Texas school children that contained even further embellishments.

Is anyone aware of evidence supporting the line in the sand story?

Regardless if the line was drawn with a sabre or a yardstick,the fact still remains and always will,that Brave men from all walks of life,believed in one thing,"FREEDOM",and gave up their lives for it.Look around you,SAN ANTONIO is what it is today
because of their ulimate sacrifice.Yes Travis did indeed gave a speech to all inside the walls of the ALAMO,he gave them the opportunity to leave or stay and defend for what was right.99% stayed.Remeber this ,there were Hispanics,Polish,German.Scottish,Englishmen,possib ly some FRENCH,Italians,who together,fought and died,so we could have the FREEDOM to say what we want and believe.Who gives a rat's *** if a line line was drawn or not.