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Old 09-09-2010, 11:01 PM
 
1,532 posts, read 1,430,478 times
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Whenever subdivisions build around them and usually for profit gun ranges must sell and move. I have seen this before as in the former Texas International Gun Club on F.M. 471 outside 1604. It was quite an elaborate club for the wealthy during the sixties and early seventies. There were shotguns valued at tens of thousnad of dollars in the lobby. Not a trace left of the range now. It is all subdivisions. I worked there during the live pigeon shoot, Some barbarians would shoot at pigeons loaded into air powered chutes from undergroundcement tunnels below the firing range, where we would bring them down by the fork lift load and install the poor things into a chute and they would be airlifted upward ,(shot that is , pneumatically under air pressure to ground level through chutes) into the air above the tunnels where the pigeons would be fired at "on the wing". The unwary beasts would attempt to fly away while being bombarded with pellets by well dressed marksman with very expensive shotguns while very ,very very well dressed ladies would watch from underneath covered open air tents.
It didn't matter to the birds , they would immediately fly back to their roosts, a large pen made of chicken wire on the grounds of the gun club
to be taken back to be sent up into the firing range again. If the unwary pigeons lived through the gunfire and were fluttering about on the ground
in front of eveyone wounded, one would have to chase( run, that is) after the pigeon, wring its' neck and toss the body into a fifty gallon drum that had already been placed for that purpose.
It was an insane peoposition for aoll involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by majormadmax View Post
Much like the idiot couple that ran out of gas on a busy road, here's another sensationalized news story from WOAI...



Bracken Range has been in its current location for 25 years, and this new development is a little over a year old; but the residents think it's the range's responsibility to close down!

Developers should be required by law to notify potential residents of such things as nearby gun ranges, airports, quarries, military bases or any other establishment that may conflict with living in that location.

That way, the idiots can't act so surprised like this when things like this happen!

Actually, the probably still will; but at least that way they have no one to blame but themselves!
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Old 09-10-2010, 02:54 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
10,485 posts, read 10,259,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huckster View Post
Whenever subdivisions build around them and usually for profit gun ranges must sell and move. I have seen this before as in the former Texas International Gun Club on F.M. 471 outside 1604.
That makes sense... but there's gotta be a law somewhere in regards to that.
But as we know, the media in our country don't like to talk about facts/laws because is boring,
it sells more to scare people first and a few days later show them the facts/laws that clarify everything.
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Old 09-10-2010, 06:37 AM
Status: "Have gun, will travel!" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
8,368 posts, read 13,370,371 times
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[quote=sc hokie;15827537]So if I sit on my front porch and start shooting off rounds I'm not responsible for what happens, just so long as I was there first? Or is it required to first be public knowledge that I'm prone to such actions? I'm not trying to oversimplify what you're saying, so please correct me if I don't seem to understand your point. Are you really saying someone is not responsible for a bullet that leaves their property?

I am saying there is a distinct difference between someone sitting on their property shooting and an established gun range that has been in its location for a quarter of a century. Of course the management at Bracken is responsible for what goes on at their range, but I still think it is ridiculous that someone would knowingly build a housing development so close and then complain about it.

Quote:
I have been there quite a few times as it's my normal range. I also referenced Google Earth to verify distances. You're correct that the rifle range is 90 degrees out from the direction to Garden Ridge. I also agree that the range owners are extremely strict and would not allow any shenanigans.

According to Google Earth the elevation of the range is 775ft above sea level. The height of the hilltop behind the range is 814ft and is 150 yards away. My trig calculations...(cut for math)
OK, you put this old man to sleep when you said "trig calculations!"

But I think you are proving my point in that considering the range's location in the quarry pit and the angles involved (ugh, trig again!), as well as the ranges involved, it is almost impossible for what is being claimed to happen. It was only slightly alluded to that there are also hunting areas around the development, but the natural knee-jerk reaction of the local “news” is to blame the gun range.

As speculated on another forum, what the real issue is may be that the new residents now realize the noise that is coming from the range, and are claiming that bullets are flying through their neighborhood in an attempt to garner support to have it shut down. At least the authorities have expressed some wisdom in saying that it hasn’t been proven that Bracken is the culprit and that there is only so much within the law that could be done about it. Someone also opined that in Texas, it your car is hit by a stray golf ball when you drive past a golf course, under Texas law it is not the fault of the golf course. They gave no reference to the law, but if true and it is not the golf course’s responsibility but the players; would the same apply in this situation? If someone builds a house on the edge of a golf course, and golf balls are constantly coming through their windows, do they have legal recourse against the course? Now there’s an analogy that bears scrutiny!

Cheers! M2
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:18 AM
 
77 posts, read 145,690 times
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I think we're arguing the same thing here, just from different perspectives and with different words. I find it unlikely that we'd disagree on gun safety and property rights. I also agree that one should have no pity on someone who is shocked and surprised to discover a gun range 1/2 mile from their house that has been there for 25 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by majormadmax View Post
But I think you are proving my point in that considering the range's location in the quarry pit and the angles involved (ugh, trig again!), as well as the ranges involved, it is almost impossible for what is being claimed to happen.
Kind of. I'm claiming that it is impossible for a bullet from the rifle range or covered pistol range to leave the quarry. Theoretically it is possible, but having seen their setup at Bracken and firsthand experienced their strict policing of the rules I claim it to be impossible in practice.

The only exception is the uncovered pad used for concealed carry classes. However from there requires a fairly extreme angle on the shot. Having witnesssed the type of people that show up for concealed carry classes, I don't think it unlikely that someone could fail to keep their booger picker off the trigger and inadvertantly discharge their firearm when pointed above the target. But in my opinion that only accounts for 1-2 bullets a year that make it out of the quarry, it doesn't account for the dozens of rounds hitting the same house.

Quote:
It was only slightly alluded to that there are also hunting areas around the development, but the natural knee-jerk reaction of the local “news” is to blame the gun range.
I'll admit I missed this nugget on my first read through. That certainly changes things. I'm willing to give the residents the benifit of the doubt when they claim bullets are hitting their houses, but that doesn't mean it's bullets from the range. I'm curious if anyone has recovered a bullet and measured the caliber. I wonder how many of them would be of the .223 caliber and less of the .45 caliber.

Quote:
If someone builds a house on the edge of a golf course, and golf balls are constantly coming through their windows, do they have legal recourse against the course? Now there’s an analogy that bears scrutiny!

Cheers! M2
I find that to be a better analogy to this situation than living near an airport. An airplane only presents a noise nusance, not a physical threat to life and property.

I don't know about it being a law, and I don't even know about how it's handled in TX, but I do know about GA. I was playing at a course in southern GA recently with a fellow that lived on the course. He said that all residents are required to sign an agreement that that won't sue the course or any players for damage done to their property by golf balls. Not only that, but they have to allow the players access to their property to retrive any golf balls that might have landed there and caused said damage!

I don't think that removes all liability from Bracken Range in this cause, but it doesn't mean this has to be their fault, and it also doesn't mean the builder and the residents are completely blameless. At some point you have to be responsible for your failure to perform due dilligence when you buy your house.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:48 AM
 
482 posts, read 967,566 times
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I've been following this thread with interest as my wife and I are planning to retire to the S.A. area and are shooting enthusiasts.

We've had some of the same situations here in Las Vegas. One shooting range has had housing move pretty close to it. The only thing is that all the berms at this particular range butt up into pretty large hills, so that unless you are shooting by turning around and pointing your rifle over the parking lot there is zero change of a stray round ending up in someone's yard. Yet, even with this, a homeowner (who had complained previously about the noise) called police to come to her house and look at all the bullets that had come from the range. Police came over, and picked up the "bullets" from her yard. The problems was that she had apparently gone to a store and bought a box of 30-06 rounds and just dropped them in the yard. Police had to explain to her that only the little pointy thing on the end leaves the barrel

The other and much newer range has had it's share of noise complaints. It has been in the planning stages for about 20 years, and finally came to fruition last year. A homeowners group which is from a subdivision that was built in the past three years more than a mile from the range has complained about the noise. Db testing shows that the noise from the range at their homes is minimal. In fact, most of the shooting could not even be picked up by the equipment, but they still persist.

Good luck with your ranges, it's becoming much, much harder to keep a range and almost impossible to acquire a new one these days.
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:41 AM
RGJ
 
1,898 posts, read 2,648,968 times
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Maybe these people complaining should visit the Olmos Park area where San Antonio Gun Club(a shotgun range/club) borders their neighborhood.

From their website:
"President Southwell convinced city and highway officials to come out to the club and view a " live fire" demonstration to prove the safety zone between the club and proposed freeway. And, in an act that could only be titled true Texas Bravado, president Southwell walked out into the proposed freeway path and faced the club. He then signaled a group of shooters to fire volley after volley of shells at him from the shooting stations. Of course, as an experienced shooter he knew the distance was too great to poise a threat to him. However, what better way to demonstrate to city and highway officials that the club was more than a safe distance away from the motorists traveling on the freeway. Thanks to Bill Southwell and a small but dedicated group of club members the freeway came, and the San Antonio Gun Club stayed."

SA GunClub
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Old 09-10-2010, 11:17 AM
 
627 posts, read 1,165,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majormadmax View Post
They gave no reference to the law, but if true and it is not the golf course’s responsibility but the players; would the same apply in this situation? If someone builds a house on the edge of a golf course, and golf balls are constantly coming through their windows, do they have legal recourse against the course? Now there’s an analogy that bears scrutiny!
I think usually you could go after the course and/or players for damage on your property even if you built later. The exception would be that most "golf communities" where the houses were built and sold by the course developer usually have deed restrictions that make any damage the homeowners responsibility.

Also they usually have deed restrictions allowing players to retrieve balls from your property and disallow fences on houses that border fairways.
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:16 AM
RGJ
 
1,898 posts, read 2,648,968 times
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And now Fox is in on the story

KABB Fox San Antonio :: Top Stories - Bullets Scare Area Neighbors- Christina Coleman
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:38 AM
 
134 posts, read 220,282 times
Reputation: 91
I think everyone is missing the simplest solution. Rename Wild Wind subdivision Wild West and then the stray bullets will just add to the theme of the neighborhood.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:46 AM
 
986 posts, read 1,040,812 times
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There is a thing called Google Maps - look at your neighborhood before you move there.

Did the complainers produce the rounds for some ballistic work?

On the other hand, I never underestimate the capacity of some folks to shoot wildly - sadly. Seen it.

But that's another reason not to build down range.
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