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Old 10-07-2010, 09:24 AM
 
89 posts, read 183,132 times
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I saw a sign for something called Hope Arise Church with an arrow pointing to Johnson High School. Out of curiosity I looked it up. Much to my surprise I found that NEISD allows a church to hold prayer services at Bush Middle and Johnson High Schools on sundays!

How can this be, what happened to the whole church/state separation thing? Don't get me wrong, I am a pretty religious guy but I would never have thought this would be allowed??? Who pays for the expense, power,a/c, staffing etc... These are public facilities paid/funded by tax $$, should they allow a church to worship at our expense?

Maybe this is normal in TX ( I'm pretty new) but still.......the whole church/state separation thing
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:35 AM
 
1,007 posts, read 1,211,610 times
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The courts have ruled that Religious groups can use puplic property as long as reimbursement is full (they pay for it) and it doesnt interfere with regular use of the property. As the courts say it creates no "excessive entanglement"

It is a business transaction not sponsorship. Various levels of government do business with...well, every legal entity in this country. It is actually similar to the Government being able to send a Fire Marshal into a Church to do a safety inspection. The Government and Religious groups (any legal entitiy) have to and can have relationships. That doesnt make it an endorsement of any faith.

From a legal standpoint, a Military Chaplain (who are actual members of the Military) who are paid to render religious duties represent far more of a legal issue than the Government leasing space to a religious group but very few people even think about that one.

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Old 10-07-2010, 09:40 AM
 
Location: New Braunfels, TX
6,257 posts, read 8,990,051 times
Reputation: 6342
Quote:
Originally Posted by toc1996 View Post
How can this be, what happened to the whole church/state separation thing? Don't get me wrong, I am a pretty religious guy but I would never have thought this would be allowed??? Who pays for the expense, power,a/c, staffing etc... These are public facilities paid/funded by tax $$, should they allow a church to worship at our expense?

Maybe this is normal in TX ( I'm pretty new) but still.......the whole church/state separation thing
Welcome to the Constitution. What it REALLY forbids is the government establishing a "State Religion", NOT precluding government from allowing the exercise of religion. As long as it is available on an equal basis, there's no legal issue.

It's similar to the various candidates spouting off about how they support "guns for legitimate sporting purposes". The 2nd Amendment says NOTHING about "sporting arms" - it says "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:49 AM
 
Location: San Antonio-Westover Hills
6,878 posts, read 18,179,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasRedneck View Post
Welcome to the Constitution. What it REALLY forbids is the government establishing a "State Religion", NOT precluding government from allowing the exercise of religion. As long as it is available on an equal basis, there's no legal issue.

It's similar to the various candidates spouting off about how they support "guns for legitimate sporting purposes". The 2nd Amendment says NOTHING about "sporting arms" - it says "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

.....aaaand there you go. Someone who "understands the show."!
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:51 AM
 
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
4,284 posts, read 3,723,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toc1996 View Post
I saw a sign for something called Hope Arise Church with an arrow pointing to Johnson High School. Out of curiosity I looked it up. Much to my surprise I found that NEISD allows a church to hold prayer services at Bush Middle and Johnson High Schools on sundays!

How can this be, what happened to the whole church/state separation thing? Don't get me wrong, I am a pretty religious guy but I would never have thought this would be allowed??? Who pays for the expense, power,a/c, staffing etc... These are public facilities paid/funded by tax $$, should they allow a church to worship at our expense?

Maybe this is normal in TX ( I'm pretty new) but still.......the whole church/state separation thing
This is legal in most, if not all, states. I have lived in Maryland, Pennsylvania, Missouri, and Illinois where this was common place. Not only can churches meet at public schools, but so can boy & girl scout organizations, Muslims seeking to establish a mosque (which is what the Christians are doing - they meet there as they save money to purchase/rent/build at another location), I've even seen those people who do that Medieval re-enactment thing. Those buildings belong to the people of the community - not the government.
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:00 AM
 
1,007 posts, read 1,211,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasRedneck View Post
Welcome to the Constitution. What it REALLY forbids is the government establishing a "State Religion", NOT precluding government from allowing the exercise of religion. ."
That is true but doesnt answer the question. If it did, there would be no need for courts. (at least in this case)

For example, where do we draw the line? The term "establishing" is fairly understandable but does that mean the government can endorse a Religion? If we take the term establish as the literal limitation then yes, the government can endorse a religion.

That is why we have courts, to answer the legal questions that arise. (And no, the Government cant endorse a religion either but what that means also brings about problems)

You bring up "shall not be infringed" which, on its face, is pretty straight forward. However, when trying to understand a law, we have to set the extreme ends of the issue. On one end, Just what it says, can not infringe. On the other end, you have a guy robbing a bank with a gun. Taking that gun from him is infringing.

So we can see, "shall not be infringed" is not absolute(even though it appears, on it's face, to be an absolute statement). I did not bring this up to argue where that line should be drawn, just how legal thought works and things are not always so clear.
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:09 AM
 
Location: New Braunfels, TX
6,257 posts, read 8,990,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neshomamench View Post
That is true but doesnt answer the question. If it did, there would be no need for courts. (at least in this case)

For example, where do we draw the line? The term "establishing" is fairly understandable but does that mean the government can endorse a Religion? If we take the term establish as the literal limitation then yes, the government can endorse a religion.


So we can see, "shall not be infringed" is not absolute(even though it appears, on it's face, to be an absolute statement). I did not bring this up to argue where that line should be drawn, just how legal thought works and things are not always so clear.
.....and that's why many of these issues have already been to the USSC, and others are going there.

And no, endorsing *a specific* religion may not be done - endorsing religion generally in and of itself, however would not be contrary to the law.

There's been a number of cases with regards to the 2nd A, and more coming - but if one reads the Federalist Papers, there's a MUCH clearer understanding of the meaning of much of the Constitution by those who wrote it. May have been a long time ago, but they had a clear vision of their desires, and understood the challenges to be faced, I think.

And frankly....thank you for presenting a challenge in such a thoughtful and (IMO) quite respectful way!
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:06 PM
 
Location: That's pretty obvious
1,035 posts, read 2,077,619 times
Reputation: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by toc1996 View Post
I saw a sign for something called Hope Arise Church with an arrow pointing to Johnson High School. Out of curiosity I looked it up. Much to my surprise I found that NEISD allows a church to hold prayer services at Bush Middle and Johnson High Schools on sundays!

How can this be, what happened to the whole church/state separation thing? Don't get me wrong, I am a pretty religious guy but I would never have thought this would be allowed??? Who pays for the expense, power,a/c, staffing etc... These are public facilities paid/funded by tax $$, should they allow a church to worship at our expense?

Maybe this is normal in TX ( I'm pretty new) but still.......the whole church/state separation thing

Ummm pretty much every single school has a church service going on on Sunday now...reagan, bush, hardy oak, stone oak to name a few more. I don't see the problem since the building is empty on Sundays. I do take issue with a prayer being said at council meetings and school board meetings though. That just makes my blood boil.
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:58 PM
 
242 posts, read 592,803 times
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I believe churches pay a fee to use school facilities. This covers the expenses you referred to (power, a/c, staffing, etc.)
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Old 10-07-2010, 03:24 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
4,149 posts, read 9,306,866 times
Reputation: 3308
Quote:
Originally Posted by toc1996 View Post
I saw a sign for something called Hope Arise Church with an arrow pointing to Johnson High School. Out of curiosity I looked it up. Much to my surprise I found that NEISD allows a church to hold prayer services at Bush Middle and Johnson High Schools on sundays!

How can this be, what happened to the whole church/state separation thing? Don't get me wrong, I am a pretty religious guy but I would never have thought this would be allowed??? Who pays for the expense, power,a/c, staffing etc... These are public facilities paid/funded by tax $$, should they allow a church to worship at our expense?

Maybe this is normal in TX ( I'm pretty new) but still.......the whole church/state separation thing


A) It doesn't cost tax dollars

B) There's no such thing as separation of Church and state. The government can't force you to be a certain religion or discriminate against you because you worship a certain way. Period.
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