the great 281 debate (San Antonio, Alamo, Hondo: sales, new home, school)

[mimimomx3]

Living in Austin, we've been dealing with toll roads for the past 5 years or so. My opinion is that tolls for NEW roads are fine, as long as you remove the tolls when the roads are PAID FOR, or reduce the tolls to cover maintenance only. WHY should the state be allowed to profit from a person's commute ad infinitum? There is NO reasonable explanation, in my opinion to toll an EXISTING road, such as 410, or the exisitng part of 281 for any reason...that's why we pay the gas tax.

[traficdogn]

Originally Posted by mimimomx3

There is NO reasonable explanation, in my opinion to toll an EXISTING road, such as 410, or the exisitng part of 281 for any reason...that's why we pay the gas tax.

As long as roads are free in urban areas, they are going to be congested. The only way to reduce traffic congestion is by charging people for it's direct usage.

Now we just need to fight the politicians to lower our property tax in exchange.

[mimimomx3]

As long as roads are free in urban areas, they are going to be congested. The only way to reduce traffic congestion is by charging people for it's direct usage.

-How about HOV lanes to encourage people to carpool and have less congested roads?

Now we just need to fight the politicians to lower our property tax in exchange.
-How about we lower our property AND gas taxes FIRST?

[oldmanshirt]

Originally Posted by mimimomx3

Living in Austin, we've been dealing with toll roads for the past 5 years or so. My opinion is that tolls for NEW roads are fine, as long as you remove the tolls when the roads are PAID FOR, or reduce the tolls to cover maintenance only. WHY should the state be allowed to profit from a person's commute ad infinitum? There is NO reasonable explanation, in my opinion to toll an EXISTING road, such as 410, or the exisitng part of 281 for any reason...that's why we pay the gas tax.

This is a common misconception. TXDot is not going to toll all of 281 or any existing road, they are simply going to toll the new lanes. Thus, putting four new toll lanes on 281 is the same as if they built a brand new four lane freeway. If you want to drive the same old 281 you can drive today, you'll be able to take the access roads free of charge (there are even going to be flyovers incorporated at a few of the intersections, meaning you'll get to skip some of the traffic lights free of charge). I repeat, they are not going to turn an existing highway into a 100% full-on toll road.

[mimimomx3]

I repeat, they are not going to turn an existing highway into a 100% full-on toll road.

I trust TxDOT about as far I can throw them. Here in Austin, when the first toll roads were introduced 5 years or so ago, TXDOT was very strong in saying the same thing- existing roads would NEVER be tolled. Well, guess what? Plans are underway for tolling MOPAC/Loop 1. YES, the same Mopac that has been around since the 1980s. Don't be surprised to see all of 281, 1604 and 410 tolled. Now, what about HOV lanes???? Oh, wait, TXDOT can't make any money off of those! Forget it...

[dendox]

mimimomx3 - you aren't paying close enough attention to the crux of this argument. There will still be free lanes - as many as there are now - on any of the new toll roads for which you are speaking.

281 will have three lanes of access roads that will have read lights and be almost identical to what is there now. The catch - they will be moved over a few feet to accommodate for the tolled lanes in the middle.

1604 will move the regular lanes that exist today out to the sides and put toll lanes in the middle.

Mopac will not lose the free lanes as they exist today. They will be moved over or something to make room for the tolled lanes. The way the laws are written it is illegal for them to take away lanes that have already been paid for to replace them with tolls. When the toll project is done (construction that is) there HAS to be free lanes next to it - provided we are talking about tolling on roads that already exist.

[mimimomx3]

If the goal is to reduce congestion, why not build HOV (high occupancy vehicles, i.e., carpool) lanes? If that really IS the goal, of course....

[oldmanshirt]

Originally Posted by mimimomx3

If the goal is to reduce congestion, why not build HOV (high occupancy vehicles, i.e., carpool) lanes? If that really IS the goal, of course....

The key word you're using is "build". Building, as we all know, costs money. Where is the money going to come from?

Hint: before you say it, it's not going to come from the gas tax.

[ddrewa]

Originally Posted by dendox

mimimomx3 - you aren't paying close enough attention to the crux of this argument. There will still be free lanes - as many as there are now - on any of the new toll roads for which you are speaking.

281 will have three lanes of access roads that will have read lights and be almost identical to what is there now. The catch - they will be moved over a few feet to accommodate for the tolled lanes in the middle.

1604 will move the regular lanes that exist today out to the sides and put toll lanes in the middle.

Mopac will not lose the free lanes as they exist today. They will be moved over or something to make room for the tolled lanes. The way the laws are written it is illegal for them to take away lanes that have already been paid for to replace them with tolls. When the toll project is done (construction that is) there HAS to be free lanes next to it - provided we are talking about tolling on roads that already exist.

According to TXDOT, that is. And we all know TXDOT is completely trustworthy.

[mastercone]

All of the posts seem to DRAW this conclusion that the 281 fiasco just happened on its own. TxDOT had foresight of this problem and knew this precise result would occur just like they have planned all over the state.

Why?

So they could make the push for toll roads <*NEW FUNDING SOURCE ALERT*> because highway money supposedly had gone dry. TxDOT isn't stupid because they already know how easy it is to fool the taxpayers. Here's how it worked so well:

Step 1: Let the development mushroom to the point that relief from horrible traffic congestion is needed.

Step 2: Move in with the NEW TOLL ROAD PLAN for PRIVATE ENRICHMENT on your dime.

Step 3: Publicly rebuke/ridicule/reject any taxpayers that don't like it because they no longer have control of their government at any level (federal, state, county, municipal).

Step 4: Enjoy the well sewn seeds of success by building the toll roads and watching the money roll in. Eventually retire from TxDOT or leave government and end up as an overpaid consultant or board member with the very companies to which you channeled toll roads.

Case in point: Not one overpass has been built on 281 in the most congested areas where it is badly needed. Another perfect example are the newly finished intersections on 1604 at Potranco and/or Military. Not one overpass and the traffic is still as bad as it was when they were contructing it over the past few years. How hard it is to build a few overpasses?

THE END RESULT: Eager TAXPAYERS are willing to accept any fix from the government, even if it means paying an additional $7-18 to travel 1604/281 in the future.

Moreover, look at the new survey TxDOT has that says they should charge as much as the taxpayer is willing to pay for these toll roads. TxDOT merely borrowed the Tollroad handbook from the northeast in order to calculate how to ram it down your throats. Well, it worked! A new, uncontrolled funding source is on its way.

Soon, there will be two classes of citizens in Texas, now an obvious NAFTA trial balloon state for privatization: Those who CAN afford to ride the private toll roads and those who CANNOT.

Lastly, someone mentioned a property tax reduction in exchange for toll roads. Lest you be reminded, Texans will receive a tax cut starting in next year's property taxes. When you receive your property tax bills in the next few months, you'll notice how the county Tax Assessor, working harmoniously with the endless taxing entities throughout this county, raised the home values throughout the county enough so as to absorb most of the planned tax cut passed by the legislature in 2006. You will see a small cut in in a few months, but by next year that tax cut will have practically disappeared. Just like the tax cut in the nineties, they figured out a way to get it all back.

I wouldn't be surprised if some in here tell you that we're not paying enough. I would argue that they are just spending way too much and we can't seem to stop them.

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
---Thomas Jefferson