Villages of Westcreek (San Antonio, Center, Anton: agreements, accepts, commission)

[TexasRedneck]

Originally Posted by Hoot Owl

Water Softener

I'm considering a water softener. Do I need a 40,000 grain or 48,000 grain unit in Westcreek? We're a family of 4. Our washing machine is one of those front loaders that uses very little water.

City of SA water averages 15-17 grains/gallon. Average usage per person is 50 gals/day. 4 people means about 200 gallons. A 30,000 grain (1 cu ft) unit is really all you need, IMO - that'll treat (conservatively) 900 gallons per regeneration with a 6 lb/cu ft. Remember that resin is sold (most economically) in 1 cu ft bags, and that industry standard is 30,000 grains/cu ft. Lots of folks out there rate their "special resins" at higher capacities per cubic foot - which, IMO, is nothing more than taking advantage of folks that aren't as knowledgeable about this kind of thing.

Is your house preplumbed for a softener? That's the big issue - that, and the type of control valve used. Some valves are "changed" every 5 years ("Sir, I'm sorry - that model is no longer made, you'll have to buy a new one") - the one I use today is the same as the one I used when I started in this industry in 1976. DM me if you would like more specific information - I don't want to be presumptuous and contact you without your permission.

[Hoot Owl]

The price difference between the 30,000 grain units and 48,000 is negligible. House is plumbed. This would be a replacement unit. But I cannot find the grain count on the old unit. Is there any problem getting a unit with a higher grain number than I might actually need?

[TexasRedneck]

Originally Posted by wellguy

#of Family Members x 75 (Average use in gallons per day per person) x Hardness in grains per gallon (the last time I checked our water it was 16 -17 grains per gallon) x 7 (if it will regenerate once per week)

In your case 4 x 75 x 17 x 7 = 35,700 grain unit.

I don't admit to be a Water Softener Expert by any means but that is the formula as I recall. Some Folks will tell you the average consumption per person per day is 100 gallons (as you know this is all the water used for that person including dishes and clothes washed, toilet use, shower /bathing , cooking, drinking, etc.)

Times have changed, WG....

You actually want to avoid going TOO long between regenerations - you can have problems with the bed compacting from going too long between regenerations. Plus, nowadays (and actually, since the early 80's) there are very reliable metering units that actually go based on your actual usage rather than on time. I waited about 5 years before going to the metered units to be sure they had the "kinks" worked out, but the really neat part is that I could take an existing time-based unit and convert it to a meter-based one, reusing 80% of the existing valve. To be honest, I haven't supplied a time-based softener to a customer in about 15 years - the metered units are rock-solid reliable (analog-style, NOT the solid state ones, which I hate). The SS units weak point is their electronics - the mechanical ones pretty much run forever, or so it seems. I was on a service call for one a few weeks ago on the NC side of SA - new homeowner, old softener (there when they bought the house used). They were ready to replace - turns out that someone had tinkered with the settings on the valve (which really takes some doing). I reset it to spec, and all is well - and the unit is about 14 years old!

[TexasRedneck]

Originally Posted by Hoot Owl

The price difference between the 30,000 grain units and 48,000 is negligible. House is plumbed. This would be a replacement unit. But I cannot find the grain count on the old unit. Is there any problem getting a unit with a higher grain number than I might actually need?

Not much, unless you really overdo it. HOWEVER - DM me a picture of your old unit control valve. I get LOTS of "replace" calls where the unit can be repaired with stock parts. Most places don't want to repair any more - not enough $$$ in it for 'em. I don't mind it, because the ones I can repair send their friends and family to the "guy that's honest". If it's a valve I can get the parts for, an overhaul/repair is a LOT cheaper than replacing.

Also, please bear in mind my comments re. how resin is supplied. I can buy "partial" bags of resin, but the cost per unit is higher, and I hate to see $$$ wasted - none of us gets it given to us.

You likely won't find a grain capacity on the old unit - but if it's a 30,000 grain (30 kg) unit, the tank itself will be about 8-9 inches diameter by about 4' tall, plus another 4-6" height for the control valve. Then again, the salesperson should be able to tell you the capacity of the old unit just by looking at it.

[wellguy]

Originally Posted by TexasRedneck

Times have changed, WG....

You actually want to avoid going TOO long between regenerations - you can have problems with the bed compacting from going too long between regenerations. Plus, nowadays (and actually, since the early 80's) there are very reliable metering units that actually go based on your actual usage rather than on time. I waited about 5 years before going to the metered units to be sure they had the "kinks" worked out, but the really neat part is that I could take an existing time-based unit and convert it to a meter-based one, reusing 80% of the existing valve. To be honest, I haven't supplied a time-based softener to a customer in about 15 years - the metered units are rock-solid reliable (analog-style, NOT the solid state ones, which I hate). The SS units weak point is their electronics - the mechanical ones pretty much run forever, or so it seems. I was on a service call for one a few weeks ago on the NC side of SA - new homeowner, old softener (there when they bought the house used). They were ready to replace - turns out that someone had tinkered with the settings on the valve (which really takes some doing). I reset it to spec, and all is well - and the unit is about 14 years old!

I'm sure glad you visited this thread since she needs an Expert to answer all of her questions. I first used that Formula about / approx 20 years ago. The seven day regeration period does (now at least) seem too long as you said. Is it fair to say that most regenerate on useage verses days? What are your thoughts on an Activated Charcoal or Spun Fiber Filter prior to the softener? I see this on occassion.

I'm glad to hear that the home is already plumbed for a softener.

[TexasRedneck]

Great, WG - you REALLY hit on a sore subject for me.....

Chlorine is a "necessary evil". Lots of folks don't like it, but without it water contamination would be rampant. There are LOTS of cross-connections in the average home, and lots of opportunities for contamination of spigots/faucets, etc. That's the reason I will not - ever - period - install a carbon filtration of ANY kind on the entrance of a home. Yeah, I leave a LOT of potential sales on the table - but I honestly feel that it's asking for trouble on the part of the homeowner - and I'm the guy that "knows better", or at least I should.

A softener by the nature of its' operation acts as a 10-20 micron filter on its' own. Most particulate filter cartridges are in the range of 5 to 20 microns. City water itself is by and large VERY clean in terms of particulate matter. I have 1,000 to 24,000 gpd RO systems (commercial) that routinely run with 1 micron prefilters between the RO and softener that I replace as a PM on a monthly basis without any significant loss in pressure or flow, so IMO, a filter, while not harmful from a health standpoint, is spending money unnecessarily...

Please be careful with that "expert" thing, bud - I still wear out erasers on my pencils!

MOST softeners now operate based on usage, but there's still some sold out there that run on time, but I seldom see 'em any more.

The usage formula has certainly changed over the years - back when I started in '76, it was 100 gal/person per day. About 15 years ago, it went to 75 - and today, thanks to low flow fixtures, it's 50. When I first saw that, I thought they were nuts, so I watched our own usage carefully (wife and I in house). Our average monthly usage...3,000 gallons!

[Hoot Owl]

Unit is 16 years old. Is it even worth repairing? That resin doesn't last forever.

[wellguy]

TexasRedneck- I wish I had a $ for everytime I've had to check Chlorine Residuals at a Customer's Home. Usually it's the Customer who calls after a Softener Technician informs them of an extremely high residual. Sometimes it's a Technician who informs us that he checked the incoming water and the residual was 3.0 ppm. This happened last week in an area of Shavano Park. I have no idea what it was checked with but if the residual was ever that high we would have calls out the Whazoo. Folks don't realize that Bells, Whistles, Alarms, etc would be going off downtown and the distribution system would be flushed to get rid of the high residual (Although 3 ppm is still within range it is not what Folks are used to and they won't tolerate it) If Folks only knew how close the system is watched... 24 /7 . History's and Trend's can be ran to assure everyone that the Cl2 was never out of whack. By the way when I checked the residual (within 45 minutes of the call) at the same Home in Shavano Park it was 0.8 ppm. Although I can't tell you right off hand what the model is all of our field meters are HACH's at about $400.00 per unit. That is no way says that the less expensive Color Wheel (which many Folks still use) can't be fairly accurate. Although the wheel is subject to fading from the sun and heat.

Although I should not say this there are some money hungry Folks out there that could / would sell ice to an Eskimo if they had the chance.

Well Folk's I'd better hit the hay for a while. I have to be at a site off of San Pedro at 4:30am

[TexasRedneck]

Originally Posted by Hoot Owl

Unit is 16 years old. Is it even worth repairing? That resin doesn't last forever.

The oldest unit I have is 27 years old. I rebed the resin as needed, and repair the valve as required. The resin at that site has averaged 10 years, and the valve has been repaired twice.

Yeah - I think they're worth repairing if they're a decent valve. Like I said - send me a pic of the control valve (the part on top). I can usually figure out what make it is from that - and if it's one that's worth repairing.

[Hoot Owl]

Originally Posted by TexasRedneck

The oldest unit I have is 27 years old. I rebed the resin as needed, and repair the valve as required. The resin at that site has averaged 10 years, and the valve has been repaired twice.

Yeah - I think they're worth repairing if they're a decent valve. Like I said - send me a pic of the control valve (the part on top). I can usually figure out what make it is from that - and if it's one that's worth repairing.

I can't take a pic right now. But it's a Rayne RF 1000 model. I think it's 16 years old.