U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Texas > San Antonio
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 12-01-2007, 09:48 AM
 
168 posts, read 432,601 times
Reputation: 113

Advertisements

You didn't respond to any of the factual assertions I made concerning the Fair Tax which tells me that you didn't have an effective response. As I said before, this is great pro-Republican fodder that will go no where. If the current administration couldn't get it done in two terms while it had full control of the Congress, then it will never get done.

While Boortz, Forbes, and other notables get their jollies touting the flat tax from time to time, why is it that you don't see more wealthy taxpayers on the bandwagon? If you think the entire tax code is going to change because a few million angry middle class malcontents want it changed, then you can forget it. The wealthy know that the flat tax is nothing more than crumbs being flicked at the middle class with the hope that they will vote Republican. Congress and your government are coin-operated and ONLY the wealthy have the right size coins to fit in the machines.

I never said I disliked the idea of a flat tax. What you misinterpreted for opposing it was my explanation of the details as to why it will never come to pass. I would like to see a day where we have no taxes. Even if the plan were enthralling, it doesn't mean that it will ever see the light of day in the halls of government. In other words, there are dreams and there is reality. A flat tax in America is a dream. The reality is that the wealthy control America.

Moreover, even with a flat tax in place, there is no guarantee that everyone's tax burden would be lower. The one good thing that would come of it is that those who have been exempt from paying their fair share of taxes in our society would have to start paying. It makes no sense to pass tax cuts and inform America that millions of taxpayers will not have to pay any income taxes. These non-payers and cheats alike have no vested interest in this nation's continuing success. Would a flat tax be superior to the current system for those who might have poor reading comprehension skills or the inability to pay attention and do simple math? Yes. Would a flat tax cost Americans less in taxes than the current income tax? Yes for the wealthy and no for the middle class. All of this for naught as the flat tax will never be enacted in America unless there is a severe event such as a financial collapse that would require our nation to start over.

If you want change in this society, start by joining the ranks that want to fire the 546 people in Washington that tell the other 300 million of us what to do. If you can't get rid of these losers in order to start fresh, then what makes you think we can ever change the tax code?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy1 View Post
I'd suggest that those who think the current system is convoluted and confusing look at the alternatives and make their own decision. I don't think a retail tax and a value added tax are the same at all. If you really think the current tax system makes sense then, more power to you, but that certainly doesn't eliminate the possiblity that we can find a better way.

I live in a state that offers a reasonable standard of living for what seems to be a reasonable cost. There is a surplus in the state treasury. On tax day, I neglect to get my papers in order, figure out the rules, hire a tax preparer, etc, and send the state a check. My state doesn't have an income tax. Go figure.

 
Old 12-01-2007, 10:14 AM
 
3,219 posts, read 7,988,558 times
Reputation: 1411
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdreamin View Post
The point that many are missing is the fact that the taxes are exhorbitant and the schools are using the money to build the palaces and the 8 million dollar sidewalks. The point that is also being missed is that it does not take a palace to educate a child. Your child will still get the same education if the school was not so fabulous. Fabulous does not educate your child...teachers do. People keep saying...but we want educated kids. What does educated kids have to do with the cost and construction of these palaces? Are you saying that your child will not be educated if they don't have these palaces for schools? People also say, "But you will benefit from the child's education." I'm sure that many of our brilliant doctors and lawyers, today, were not educated in palaces. Some of the older ones may have gone to two room schools...but they are still brilliant. I am sure that people wouldn't mind paying a few dollars toward education of the children. I pay school taxes where I am...but they are a small, small fraction of what homeowners in Texas pay. I wouldn't mind paying a SMALL, NORMAL school tax in Texas, as I know the funding has to come from somewhere. But I wouldn't want my money going toward the building of palaces. I would want the focus to be on the hiring and retaining good educators. YOU are benefitting, in that your child gets to go to a school with cush surroundings. That has nothing to do with what they learn. Whether they turn out smart and are brilliant doctors or lawyers has nothing to do with the cost and constructing of the palaces. They will be just as brilliant in a two room school. The schools do not have their priorities straight and the huge amount of taxes that homeowners have to pay is over the top. They get money from the lottery, they get money from the taxes...and they are still saying they need more money to pay their teacher and paraprofessionals. Well, I guess so. The majority of the money is spent on the building and maintaining the palace. Then they don't have enough to pay the teachers well. If you want educated children, the focus SHOULD be on the teachers and their pay...not the school palaces. Beauty is only skin deep. You can have the most beautiful palace/school in the area...but if you don't have well paid, good teachers to educate the child...your brilliant doctors and lawyers will have to come from another state.

Amen! Amen! Amen!.
 
Old 12-01-2007, 05:08 PM
 
83 posts, read 167,255 times
Reputation: 44
Default Carry on brave warrior!

Perhaps your angst should be directed towards the notable and evil Mr. Boortz and Mr Forbes. I 'm sure the three of you could work out something really cool!

For my part, I am glad to mention that there are alternatives being discussed and hope all who have the time will consider how it is done and how it could be done. The fact that there is any discussion at all is really quite remarkable.

Since you believe we are forever stuck in a system that is rigged in favor of the priveleged few, please feel free to carry on under that assumption, and us "middle class malcontents" will bumble along as best we can.

The world is a dangerous place, not because of evil people, but because of people who do nothing about it. (Albert Einstein)







Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercone View Post
You didn't respond to any of the factual assertions I made concerning the Fair Tax which tells me that you didn't have an effective response. As I said before, this is great pro-Republican fodder that will go no where. If the current administration couldn't get it done in two terms while it had full control of the Congress, then it will never get done.

While Boortz, Forbes, and other notables get their jollies touting the flat tax from time to time, why is it that you don't see more wealthy taxpayers on the bandwagon? If you think the entire tax code is going to change because a few million angry middle class malcontents want it changed, then you can forget it. The wealthy know that the flat tax is nothing more than crumbs being flicked at the middle class with the hope that they will vote Republican. Congress and your government are coin-operated and ONLY the wealthy have the right size coins to fit in the machines.

I never said I disliked the idea of a flat tax. What you misinterpreted for opposing it was my explanation of the details as to why it will never come to pass. I would like to see a day where we have no taxes. Even if the plan were enthralling, it doesn't mean that it will ever see the light of day in the halls of government. In other words, there are dreams and there is reality. A flat tax in America is a dream. The reality is that the wealthy control America.

Moreover, even with a flat tax in place, there is no guarantee that everyone's tax burden would be lower. The one good thing that would come of it is that those who have been exempt from paying their fair share of taxes in our society would have to start paying. It makes no sense to pass tax cuts and inform America that millions of taxpayers will not have to pay any income taxes. These non-payers and cheats alike have no vested interest in this nation's continuing success. Would a flat tax be superior to the current system for those who might have poor reading comprehension skills or the inability to pay attention and do simple math? Yes. Would a flat tax cost Americans less in taxes than the current income tax? Yes for the wealthy and no for the middle class. All of this for naught as the flat tax will never be enacted in America unless there is a severe event such as a financial collapse that would require our nation to start over.

If you want change in this society, start by joining the ranks that want to fire the 546 people in Washington that tell the other 300 million of us what to do. If you can't get rid of these losers in order to start fresh, then what makes you think we can ever change the tax code?
 
Old 12-01-2007, 05:44 PM
 
83 posts, read 167,255 times
Reputation: 44
Default Appreciation due

Thanks for taking the time to draw attention to the concept of a retail tax versus an income tax. Hate to answer a question with a question, but do you really think there is any merit in debating a hypothetical tax system that doesn't even exist and that would likely not much resemble the original plan even if it did? Keyword: Concept.

Re. the "factual assertions".....Sounds like one person's opinion to me,
and one based on a really dark, pessimistic outlook. Have you considered getting a puppy?



Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercone View Post
You didn't respond to any of the factual assertions I made concerning the Fair Tax which tells me that you didn't have an effective response. As I said before, this is great pro-Republican fodder that will go no where. If the current administration couldn't get it done in two terms while it had full control of the Congress, then it will never get done.

While Boortz, Forbes, and other notables get their jollies touting the flat tax from time to time, why is it that you don't see more wealthy taxpayers on the bandwagon? If you think the entire tax code is going to change because a few million angry middle class malcontents want it changed, then you can forget it. The wealthy know that the flat tax is nothing more than crumbs being flicked at the middle class with the hope that they will vote Republican. Congress and your government are coin-operated and ONLY the wealthy have the right size coins to fit in the machines.

I never said I disliked the idea of a flat tax. What you misinterpreted for opposing it was my explanation of the details as to why it will never come to pass. I would like to see a day where we have no taxes. Even if the plan were enthralling, it doesn't mean that it will ever see the light of day in the halls of government. In other words, there are dreams and there is reality. A flat tax in America is a dream. The reality is that the wealthy control America.

Moreover, even with a flat tax in place, there is no guarantee that everyone's tax burden would be lower. The one good thing that would come of it is that those who have been exempt from paying their fair share of taxes in our society would have to start paying. It makes no sense to pass tax cuts and inform America that millions of taxpayers will not have to pay any income taxes. These non-payers and cheats alike have no vested interest in this nation's continuing success. Would a flat tax be superior to the current system for those who might have poor reading comprehension skills or the inability to pay attention and do simple math? Yes. Would a flat tax cost Americans less in taxes than the current income tax? Yes for the wealthy and no for the middle class. All of this for naught as the flat tax will never be enacted in America unless there is a severe event such as a financial collapse that would require our nation to start over.

If you want change in this society, start by joining the ranks that want to fire the 546 people in Washington that tell the other 300 million of us what to do. If you can't get rid of these losers in order to start fresh, then what makes you think we can ever change the tax code?
 
Old 12-02-2007, 09:10 AM
 
168 posts, read 432,601 times
Reputation: 113
Default There should be a license to play on the internet.....

You have yet to respond to issues raised concerning the subject of the flat tax. Your strategy of trying to "shoot the messenger" versus "defending the Flat Tax" which YOU initiated first has turned into this sorrowful personal bombast. Your responses are demonstrative that you can't defend the issues and problems in the flat tax that I have already pointed out. Your feigned efforts at personal attacks, notwithstanding, are a signal to me that you have surrendered because of a lack of additional information or knowledge concerning the subject.

This is a discussion forum and NOT a "rubber stamp" forum where we stroke each other for the simple ability to make a post. Your responses resemble the actions of a wounded donkey and, regrettably, you have now made it a complete waste of time.

"The income tax is a twentieth-century socialist experiment that has failed. Before the income tax was imposed on us just 80 years ago, government had no claim to our income. Only sales, excise, and tariff taxes were allowed." Alan Keyes


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy1 View Post
Perhaps your angst should be directed towards the notable and evil Mr. Boortz and Mr Forbes. I 'm sure the three of you could work out something really cool!

For my part, I am glad to mention that there are alternatives being discussed and hope all who have the time will consider how it is done and how it could be done. The fact that there is any discussion at all is really quite remarkable.

Since you believe we are forever stuck in a system that is rigged in favor of the priveleged few, please feel free to carry on under that assumption, and us "middle class malcontents" will bumble along as best we can.

The world is a dangerous place, not because of evil people, but because of people who do nothing about it. (Albert Einstein)....

.......Thanks for taking the time to draw attention to the concept of a retail tax versus an income tax. Hate to answer a question with a question, but do you really think there is any merit in debating a hypothetical tax system that doesn't even exist and that would likely not much resemble the original plan even if it did? Keyword: Concept.

Re. the "factual assertions".....Sounds like one person's opinion to me, and one based on a really dark, pessimistic outlook. Have you considered getting a puppy?
 
Old 12-02-2007, 09:41 AM
 
83 posts, read 167,255 times
Reputation: 44
Default I might be tempted

Look, if it were 20 years ago, I might be tempted to plaster this area of the internet with reams of interesting factoids and opinions, but today anyone who cares to can google either side of this issue and draw their own conclusion. There is nothing in any of your comments that make me think a discussion with you will be worthwhile, so there will not be one, and even if I did this is probably not the place to do it.

I'd suggest a golden retriever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercone View Post
You have yet to respond to issues raised concerning the subject of the flat tax. Your strategy of trying to "shoot the messenger" versus "defending the Flat Tax" which YOU initiated first has turned into this sorrowful personal bombast. Your responses are demonstrative that you can't defend the issues and problems in the flat tax that I have already pointed out. Your feigned efforts at personal attacks, notwithstanding, are a signal to me that you have surrendered because of a lack of additional information or knowledge concerning the subject.

This is a discussion forum and NOT a "rubber stamp" forum where we stroke each other for the simple ability to make a post. Your responses resemble the actions of a wounded donkey and, regrettably, you have now made it a complete waste of time.

"The income tax is a twentieth-century socialist experiment that has failed. Before the income tax was imposed on us just 80 years ago, government had no claim to our income. Only sales, excise, and tariff taxes were allowed." Alan Keyes
 
Old 12-02-2007, 09:53 AM
 
3,219 posts, read 7,988,558 times
Reputation: 1411
Someone do a quick breakdown of the Flat tax versus the retail tax of a single person making $50,000 a year and average disposable spending is 35,000.00
 
Old 12-02-2007, 04:26 PM
 
83 posts, read 167,255 times
Reputation: 44
Default The bigger issue

I guess we could sharpen up our #2 Ticonderogas and come up with some hypothetical figure, but not sure what that would accomplish since there are no concrete proposals on the table.
Anyone who is looking to pay lower taxes in this environment is probably going to be disappointed, the way it looks from here. Tax Freedom Day in June when we only paid half of what we earned, will likely be looked back on fondly as the "good old days." The mechanism, efficiency and equity of how taxes are collected is one thing. It's a big deal. there are options. Ultimately, it seems that the bigger issue is what each of us expects from government, and how much money and control of our lives we are willing to give up so we can be served. That may be a much bigger battle than how taxes are extracted. It could well be that it is not so much a matter of gaming or tinkering with the system as making the tough decisions about how the money is spent. Which is pretty much what this thread is really about.

I can see the point of building structures that last. I can remember my great grandfather talking about townspeople hitching up the wagons and heading up the hill to work on the brick school house in our community in the 1800s. I think he wanted me to know that what I took for granted involved some sacrifice on his part. He never said as much. It is still standing and is still being used in a state which has set the standard for literacy and educational excellence for many years. Schools are special buildings that sympolize the hopes and dreams people have for their children. I wonder if kids will consider that when they find out it's up to them to pay for a lot of them. On the other hand, there are modular building systems that are cheap, transportable to where they are needed that were not an option 150 years ago. Considering the exodus to Texas from other states, from abroad, and the number of retirees we will have to take care of, it looks like we're going to have our hands full. Given the choice today, I'd probably lean toward a permanent central structure with outlying modular classrooms that can shrink or grow in number as needed, and be used elsewhere if required. I probably shouldn't mention this, but it had occurred to me that this type of structure is possibly a project the prison system might be capable of tackling- that's a whole other can of worms. We call prison time "paying a debt to society." Parents and their kids might not be a bad part of the society to pay a debt to. Efficient modular housing for elderly people could also be a segment worthy of consideration in this little fantasy scenario.






Quote:
Originally Posted by imaterry78259 View Post
Someone do a quick breakdown of the Flat tax versus the retail tax of a single person making $50,000 a year and average disposable spending is 35,000.00
 
Old 12-02-2007, 08:16 PM
 
168 posts, read 432,601 times
Reputation: 113
Default Texas Needs to Centralize its School Districts for Starters

You made all of the cogent points but if you break down the Texas education mess more accurately, you'll want to focus on the overwhelming bureaucracies. This is where all of the money is wasted.

Bexar county has 12 individual school districts alone with at least one out of county district that permeates across county lines(Medina ISD). That's 12 different district superintendents, 12 times the number deputy cronies, purchasing departments, and other bureaucratic redundancies which all cost the taxpayers of the state a lot more than if it were centralized more efficiently. A state level purchasing system could amass a lot of buying power and command the greatest prices for tax dollars. Construction bids could be centralized, once again maximizing the best bang for the buck if operated efficiently.

But the state school system is as politicized as any other state run bureaucracy. Northside and Northeast ISD superintendents crank more than a quarter of a million a year in salary each before bonuses and extras and that is just the beginning. In Bexar county alone, there are 38,000 people working for these school districts. At least 25% of these folks are non-educational bureaucrats.

The point is that the teachers are always last on the priority list for pay, raises, hiring, etc., because that's what keeps parents supporting and voting for more money and multi-million dollar bond packages for fear that their kids will become society's new vegetables due to a lack of funding in their district. This same progressive strategy is also a de facto guarantee that the superintendents in NISD & NEISD are on track to see pay packages of $500K before bonuses in 2012-2013 AND $1 million dollars a year before bonuses by the year 2020.

In other words, if the teachers had all of the money they would ever need in salary and benefits, then no one would ever vote to approve another bond election because it would be seen as unnecessary. Hence, the school districts hire outside consultants to tell them just how much and how to suck more money out of its citizens when more money is needed. The primary principle of the school revenue game is to always allocate your funds so that you can ALWAYS say and justify that more tax money is needed. If you'll notice, they never get enough even if it is exactly what they asked for.

My favorite example is the Northside ISD. In the past 9 years, voters have APPROVED just under 2 BILLION in BOND packages. Once you add the interest for those bonds, it will cost almost $4 billion for total repayment. The minimum cost for a high school is now $70 million. This is because a high priced facility will GUARANTEE a higher operations and maintenance cost for decades to come. These school districts aren't there for schooling anymore. We're talking big, growing behemoth bureaucracies and along with that come political clout. And as long as the school districts can successfully convince parents that their child's economic future is being held hostage for more money, this ridiculous spending isn't going to stop.

The school systems are a joke in this state and every taxpayer should have this figured out when they get their tax bill. Any kid graduating from high school today NEEDS a minimum of a 4 year degree just to get recognized by a top employer in the nation. A high school degree, not just in this state but in America as a whole, has become almost as worthless as the dollar. By now we know that more money is NOT the answer, but the school districts continue to blow smoke complaining that they always need more. Eventually something gives but, for now, the masses seem content throwing more money at the problem which cannot last forever.

NISD BOND ELECTIONS
2007 $693 million
2004 $439 million
2001 $495 million
1998 $250 million

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdreamin View Post
The point that many are missing is the fact that the taxes are exhorbitant and the schools are using the money to build the palaces and the 8 million dollar sidewalks. The point that is also being missed is that it does not take a palace to educate a child. Your child will still get the same education if the school was not so fabulous. Fabulous does not educate your child...teachers do. People keep saying...but we want educated kids. What does educated kids have to do with the cost and construction of these palaces? Are you saying that your child will not be educated if they don't have these palaces for schools?......
 
Old 12-03-2007, 04:53 AM
 
3,219 posts, read 7,988,558 times
Reputation: 1411
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercone View Post
You made all of the cogent points but if you break down the Texas education mess more accurately, you'll want to focus on the overwhelming bureaucracies. This is where all of the money is wasted.

Bexar county has 12 individual school districts alone with at least one out of county district that permeates across county lines(Medina ISD). That's 12 different district superintendents, 12 times the number deputy cronies, purchasing departments, and other bureaucratic redundancies which all cost the taxpayers of the state a lot more than if it were centralized more efficiently. A state level purchasing system could amass a lot of buying power and command the greatest prices for tax dollars. Construction bids could be centralized, once again maximizing the best bang for the buck if operated efficiently.
But the state school system is as politicized as any other state run bureaucracy. Northside and Northeast ISD superintendents crank more than a quarter of a million a year in salary each before bonuses and extras and that is just the beginning. In Bexar county alone, there are 38,000 people working for these school districts. At least 25% of these folks are non-educational bureaucrats.

The point is that the teachers are always last on the priority list for pay, raises, hiring, etc., because that's what keeps parents supporting and voting for more money and multi-million dollar bond packages for fear that their kids will become society's new vegetables due to a lack of funding in their district. This same progressive strategy is also a de facto guarantee that the superintendents in NISD & NEISD are on track to see pay packages of $500K before bonuses in 2012-2013 AND $1 million dollars a year before bonuses by the year 2020.

In other words, if the teachers had all of the money they would ever need in salary and benefits, then no one would ever vote to approve another bond election because it would be seen as unnecessary. Hence, the school districts hire outside consultants to tell them just how much and how to suck more money out of its citizens when more money is needed. The primary principle of the school revenue game is to always allocate your funds so that you can ALWAYS say and justify that more tax money is needed. If you'll notice, they never get enough even if it is exactly what they asked for.

My favorite example is the Northside ISD. In the past 9 years, voters have APPROVED just under 2 BILLION in BOND packages. Once you add the interest for those bonds, it will cost almost $4 billion for total repayment. The minimum cost for a high school is now $70 million. This is because a high priced facility will GUARANTEE a higher operations and maintenance cost for decades to come. These school districts aren't there for schooling anymore. We're talking big, growing behemoth bureaucracies and along with that come political clout. And as long as the school districts can successfully convince parents that their child's economic future is being held hostage for more money, this ridiculous spending isn't going to stop.

The school systems are a joke in this state and every taxpayer should have this figured out when they get their tax bill. Any kid graduating from high school today NEEDS a minimum of a 4 year degree just to get recognized by a top employer in the nation. A high school degree, not just in this state but in America as a whole, has become almost as worthless as the dollar. By now we know that more money is NOT the answer, but the school districts continue to blow smoke complaining that they always need more. Eventually something gives but, for now, the masses seem content throwing more money at the problem which cannot last forever.

NISD BOND ELECTIONS
2007 $693 million
2004 $439 million
2001 $495 million
1998 $250 million
Those thieves can justify an annual half million dollar compensation package, while the teachers have to fight for a raise. No wonder the homeowners are getting soaked. A true license to steal.

Centralized ISD purchasing expenses and cut out the waste
From the Godfather-" A politician with a briefcase can steal more than a 1000 men with guns"
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Texas > San Antonio
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:34 PM.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top