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Old 02-22-2013, 10:21 PM
 
263 posts, read 366,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL View Post
More than likely Santa Anna showed up with thousands, the true numbers probably will never be known. But Santa Anna being the golden boy of the Mexican Army didn't travel light. He had a band with him, blacksmiths, cooks, laundry folks, wood choppers for the fires, hunters for finding meat for the troops, gathers for hay for the animals, etc. The combat troops numbers range from 1300 to 8000. The numbers of 1300 to 1800 combat troops is more inline with the final results. Those killed also varies depending on whose history you read. The Mexicans claim only 70 of their troops were killed. That's pretty light considering the Texans had 21 cannons and enough powder and ball to keep them hot. Add the small arms fire and the number has to be more than 70. The Texans claimed 600 Mexicans killed. That's also probably on the high side but a lot closer to reality for the many days of battle.
I don't think anything would have changed if Fannin had showed up. Considering the Mexicans had riders out looking for additional help for the Texans, Santa Anna would have just attacked earlier in mass and waited for Fannin destroying Fannins troops. I'll disagree with Santa Anna not being a good commander though. When he laid down DeGuello, the next day the battle only lasted minutes, not hours. Per witnesses, it lasted about 20 minutes. When you push 1300-1800 men against a couple of hundred sleeping men armed with muzzle loaders, no repeating firearms were around yet, you can't load fast enough to kill the hordes coming your way. It won't last long and it didn't per witnesses.
If you've never read Joe's account of the battle, you need to read it. He was there and lived. As he tells it, the Alamo Brigade was exhausted from working the walls, etc and most were asleep when the Mexicans charged. The Alamo defenders never stood a chance as the Mexicans were on them before they could react.
Letter from Joe's Account
I believe SANTA ANNA'S intentions were to stay SAN ANTONIO DE BEXAR and wait for his entire army to arrive,while in the process give everybody a chance to leave the ALAMO,SURRENDER or be put to death.During the thirteen days of the siege,sqirmishes,nightly cannon bombardment was done in order to persuade the defenders that they had no chance in surviving.SANTA ANNA could've done away wtih the defenders and rebel
Tejanos on the first day thay arrived.Teasing the defenders for this long might have been the begining of his own "WATERLOO,as he claimed to be the" NAPOLEON OF THE WEST".
QUESTION;Had it not been that a MEXICAN Courier been caught,given away maps,messages to where SANTA ANNA was headed,I wonder how long it would of been before he was captured and only to give up all
land rights to TEXAS only to save his own life.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Texas
5,621 posts, read 12,960,895 times
Reputation: 10700
There's a lot of myth concerning the Alamo and San Jacinto. Like who was The Yellow Rose of Texas. Most will tell you that it was Emily Morgan, but Emily Morgan never existed. There was a mulatto slave of a Mr Morgan named Emily West but she was no where near the area on the night she supposedly seduced Santa Anna. The couriers myth is another one. While I wasn't there and obviously nobody else alive was there, I tend to gravitate towards the letters from folks that were there. Even these can contradict each other. An Example would be several letters state that Crockett and 6 others were not killed at the battle. Crockett had pleaded for quarter but Santa Anna had been instructed by the Mexican Gov't to treat the Texians not as soldiers but as pirates. The rules of engagement were far different for pirates and no quarter was to be given. There are several letters to back this up with and a ladys letter,Ms Dickinson, stating that 2 men broke and ran when they found out they were going to be executed only to be lanced to death in front of her in her room where the men were looking to hide. So history is quite a variable when talking about the Alamo or San Jacinto. But, if you read the letter from Moses Lampman who was with Sam Houston and was previously at the Alamo, he tells a different story. He says that the Texians and the Mexicans had camped only a mile apart when Houstons folks found the Mexicans. No courier, no preknowledge of Santa Anna, just stumbled on to him. You also have to remember that Santa Anna was a very arrogant man and had been very successful in almost all of his military career. He thought the Texians were beaten and had planned his return to Mexico by ship. His second in command was going to be in charge of "cleanup". He had not taken the task necessary to send riders to scout the area- the Texians were a spent force in his mind.
Texian Memoirs 9

In some of the letters, the issue comes up about sending Santa Anna back to Mexico. This was not by his choice but our officials at the time. Santa Anna had signed a treaty with the Texians to remove all troops from Texas and with draw back to the Rio Grande. While he signed it, it had not been approved or considered by the Mexican Gov't. The Texians were counting on him to sell it to the Mexican Gov't which is why he wasn't executed. He was put on a ship to take him back to Mexico but our troops wanted his hide and his death. He was removed from the ship and later was sent by ship back to Mexico with the Treaty.

Quote:
I believe SANTA ANNA'S intentions were to stay SAN ANTONIO DE BEXAR and wait for his entire army to arrive,
There are letters that claim that because of the hard country, lack of browse for the animals, lack of huntable animals for the troops, lack of water, that it took 10 days for all of Santa Annas forces to arrive. Not all of the men took the same road/trail to get to San Antonio because of the travel conditions. I think this is why most folks think he had a much larger army than it was in reality.
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:10 AM
 
263 posts, read 366,868 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL View Post
There's a lot of myth concerning the Alamo and San Jacinto. Like who was The Yellow Rose of Texas. Most will tell you that it was Emily Morgan, but Emily Morgan never existed. There was a mulatto slave of a Mr Morgan named Emily West but she was no where near the area on the night she supposedly seduced Santa Anna. The couriers myth is another one. While I wasn't there and obviously nobody else alive was there, I tend to gravitate towards the letters from folks that were there. Even these can contradict each other. An Example would be several letters state that Crockett and 6 others were not killed at the battle. Crockett had pleaded for quarter but Santa Anna had been instructed by the Mexican Gov't to treat the Texians not as soldiers but as pirates. The rules of engagement were far different for pirates and no quarter was to be given. There are several letters to back this up with and a ladys letter,Ms Dickinson, stating that 2 men broke and ran when they found out they were going to be executed only to be lanced to death in front of her in her room where the men were looking to hide. So history is quite a variable when talking about the Alamo or San Jacinto. But, if you read the letter from Moses Lampman who was with Sam Houston and was previously at the Alamo, he tells a different story. He says that the Texians and the Mexicans had camped only a mile apart when Houstons folks found the Mexicans. No courier, no preknowledge of Santa Anna, just stumbled on to him. You also have to remember that Santa Anna was a very arrogant man and had been very successful in almost all of his military career. He thought the Texians were beaten and had planned his return to Mexico by ship. His second in command was going to be in charge of "cleanup". He had not taken the task necessary to send riders to scout the area- the Texians were a spent force in his mind.
Texian Memoirs 9

In some of the letters, the issue comes up about sending Santa Anna back to Mexico. This was not by his choice but our officials at the time. Santa Anna had signed a treaty with the Texians to remove all troops from Texas and with draw back to the Rio Grande. While he signed it, it had not been approved or considered by the Mexican Gov't. The Texians were counting on him to sell it to the Mexican Gov't which is why he wasn't executed. He was put on a ship to take him back to Mexico but our troops wanted his hide and his death. He was removed from the ship and later was sent by ship back to Mexico with the Treaty.



There are letters that claim that because of the hard country, lack of browse for the animals, lack of huntable animals for the troops, lack of water, that it took 10 days for all of Santa Annas forces to arrive. Not all of the men took the same road/trail to get to San Antonio because of the travel conditions. I think this is why most folks think he had a much larger army than it was in reality.
I have read where The SAN ANTONIO LIGHT NEWS PAPER interviewed Emilio Eparza or Gregorio Espaza who is not resting at a deep southside cemetary across from SOUTH SIDE HIGH SCHOOL.He had given an eyewitness account of some of the fighting that took place inside the mission,probably witnessed the speech Travis gave to the Defenders and other folks seekin refuge whithin the wall of the ALAMO,giving them the choice to leave or stay and fight .
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Texas
5,621 posts, read 12,960,895 times
Reputation: 10700
Albert, I have not seen the interview but I'll bet it's well worth reading. The last name would have been Esparza. Emilio and Gregorio were brothers. Gregorio is the only Texian that died at the Alamo with an honorable burial. He was not burned with the other dead bodies. Gregorio was a Private in the Texian army and was a Mexican National. His brother Emilio, having watched the siege, asked for his brothers body for proper burial
.
Most Texans are not aware that Mexican Nationals also fought against Mexico in Texas bid for freedom. Most that fought had seen that Mexico did not live up to its guarantees of the Mexican Constitution. When Texas became Santa Anna's problem, he threw out the Mexican Constitution altogether denying Texas any States Rights, freedom of religion, and the right to bear arms. Maybe this is why Texans today are so concerned about their gun rights- they've seen first hand what losing your guns can mean.

As to the question about taking pictures, no pictures are allowed to be taken inside the Alamo. I assume that the document will be inside the chapel and it's already been posted that it will have 2 armed guards to ensure its safety.

Last edited by TrapperL; 02-23-2013 at 09:31 AM..
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:58 PM
 
263 posts, read 366,868 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL View Post
Albert, I have not seen the interview but I'll bet it's well worth reading. The last name would have been Esparza. Emilio and Gregorio were brothers. Gregorio is the only Texian that died at the Alamo with an honorable burial. He was not burned with the other dead bodies. Gregorio was a Private in the Texian army and was a Mexican National. His brother Emilio, having watched the siege, asked for his brothers body for proper burial
.
Most Texans are not aware that Mexican Nationals also fought against Mexico in Texas bid for freedom. Most that fought had seen that Mexico did not live up to its guarantees of the Mexican Constitution. When Texas became Santa Anna's problem, he threw out the Mexican Constitution altogether denying Texas any States Rights, freedom of religion, and the right to bear arms. Maybe this is why Texans today are so concerned about their gun rights- they've seen first hand what losing your guns can mean.

As to the question about taking pictures, no pictures are allowed to be taken inside the Alamo. I assume that the document will be inside the chapel and it's already been posted that it will have 2 armed guards to ensure its safety.
According to the book"EYE WITNESS to the ALAMO" by Bill Groneman,9 yr.old Enrique Esparza born 1828-1917,son of GREGORIO ESPARZA, survived the massacre,he was the one interviewed by the THE EXPRESS NEWS in 1902.I was mistaken in the order of who was who.Yes the interview is a very interesting artical.He is the one buried at the cematery across SOUTH SIDE HIGH SCHOOL.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Texas
5,621 posts, read 12,960,895 times
Reputation: 10700
Enrique Esparzas interview with the Express News November 22, 1902. Considering he was 74 at the time of the interview, you are reading the memories of an 8 year old child at the Alamo on the day it fell. There are other interviews at this same link at the bottom of the page.
The Story of Enrique Esparza -- Biography
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:27 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
8,400 posts, read 20,121,491 times
Reputation: 4435
We tried to go see the letter this afternoon, the wait was over two hours according to the people in line that we talked to. I really wanted my kids to see it, but that's a bit too long to wait.

My oldest asked a poignant question...why isn't Travis' letter kept permanently at the Alamo?!?

I understand it is a fragile piece of history, but it should be displayed as much as possible. Perhaps at least during this period every year.

Cheers! M2
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:57 AM
 
Location: NW
246 posts, read 359,296 times
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Went this weekend and they said the wait was up to 4 hours. Maybe during the week will be better.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Texas
5,621 posts, read 12,960,895 times
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The Mrs and I went to the Alamo this morning. Parking behind the Alamo was 10 bucks for the day, the lot was not crowded at all. We got there at 8:45am and it first appeared that there wasn't much of a line. Well that was deceiving as the line was inside the breezeway that goes south from the Alamo. The line was about 250 feet long. They opened the doors at 8:55 per my watch and were letting in 10 at a time. While that may sound like it would take forever, we were only in line for 35 minutes. If you go, and you should, be aware as soon as you walk in you will be searched via an electronic wand. It's kinda like at the airport where you empty yer pockets into a plastic box and they wave the magic wand around both sides. Security is way more than I expected. If Santa Anna had attacked today I believe they had enough Texas DPS there to beat him back to Mexico. I'm not sure what all of the security is about but the alert level was way past high. After you go into the chapel you are instructed to follow the displays. That will lead you around thru the rooms to the north of the chapel area. They have a lot of things there about Travis and documents that he had written, land transfers, etc. There's a LOT to see and read. This Expo is a lot more than just the letter, a lot more. We spent an hour and a half looking at what they had to offer. The letter is the last thing you get to see and it's in a very dark, small, curtain room. There were 4 DPS officers in the room with you and there are basically no lights in the room. The letter is in a double glass, lighted encasement and you can probably get as close as 12" from it. I know I'm probably nutz but I could feel the pain Travis was experiencing when he wrote the letter. He knew this was the final plea for help. I guess for a native Texan its just a feeling that only a Texan can experience. They do give you a large handout that is the letter and other info that's well worth saving. We walked the grounds and it wasn't near as crowded as I expected. The line at 11:00AM was no longer than when we got there earlier. They did have several school buses come thru. The young ones went on inside while the 8+ year olds got in line. It's an experience to remember.

If you go, you cannot use a camera inside. If you go in the AM, take warm enough jacket as there is no heat outside and you are exposed to the wind. Obviously, no weapons allowed and that includes a pocket knife or a Leatherman like tool.Purses are searched as are everybody that comes thru the door. Expect it as the transition from the bright outdoors to the very dim lighting inside will have you blind and not understanding what's going on. There's tons of material to read. If you need glasses to read in low light, take them with you. Wear comfy shoes as you'll be standing a lot. We took in the museum which is a fancy name for the retail store. Things are expensive for the most part but where else can you buy them? It was a great experience and everybody that can find the time should go. You could be like me and look at the stone structure as you're standing in line and look at the bullet strikes on the stone. I've been to the Alamo many times and I've never noticed them before. If I had to guess, most of the folks there were in the over 50 crowd. Not near as many young folks that should be seeing this part of Texas history. It was a special day for me and the Mrs.
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:59 PM
 
263 posts, read 366,868 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL View Post
The Mrs and I went to the Alamo this morning. Parking behind the Alamo was 10 bucks for the day, the lot was not crowded at all. We got there at 8:45am and it first appeared that there wasn't much of a line. Well that was deceiving as the line was inside the breezeway that goes south from the Alamo. The line was about 250 feet long. They opened the doors at 8:55 per my watch and were letting in 10 at a time. While that may sound like it would take forever, we were only in line for 35 minutes. If you go, and you should, be aware as soon as you walk in you will be searched via an electronic wand. It's kinda like at the airport where you empty yer pockets into a plastic box and they wave the magic wand around both sides. Security is way more than I expected. If Santa Anna had attacked today I believe they had enough Texas DPS there to beat him back to Mexico. I'm not sure what all of the security is about but the alert level was way past high. After you go into the chapel you are instructed to follow the displays. That will lead you around thru the rooms to the north of the chapel area. They have a lot of things there about Travis and documents that he had written, land transfers, etc. There's a LOT to see and read. This Expo is a lot more than just the letter, a lot more. We spent an hour and a half looking at what they had to offer. The letter is the last thing you get to see and it's in a very dark, small, curtain room. There were 4 DPS officers in the room with you and there are basically no lights in the room. The letter is in a double glass, lighted encasement and you can probably get as close as 12" from it. I know I'm probably nutz but I could feel the pain Travis was experiencing when he wrote the letter. He knew this was the final plea for help. I guess for a native Texan its just a feeling that only a Texan can experience. They do give you a large handout that is the letter and other info that's well worth saving. We walked the grounds and it wasn't near as crowded as I expected. The line at 11:00AM was no longer than when we got there earlier. They did have several school buses come thru. The young ones went on inside while the 8+ year olds got in line. It's an experience to remember.

If you go, you cannot use a camera inside. If you go in the AM, take warm enough jacket as there is no heat outside and you are exposed to the wind. Obviously, no weapons allowed and that includes a pocket knife or a Leatherman like tool.Purses are searched as are everybody that comes thru the door. Expect it as the transition from the bright outdoors to the very dim lighting inside will have you blind and not understanding what's going on. There's tons of material to read. If you need glasses to read in low light, take them with you. Wear comfy shoes as you'll be standing a lot. We took in the museum which is a fancy name for the retail store. Things are expensive for the most part but where else can you buy them? It was a great experience and everybody that can find the time should go. You could be like me and look at the stone structure as you're standing in line and look at the bullet strikes on the stone. I've been to the Alamo many times and I've never noticed them before. If I had to guess, most of the folks there were in the over 50 crowd. Not near as many young folks that should be seeing this part of Texas history. It was a special day for me and the Mrs.
I consider myself lucky because my kids,all over twenty,they all ask me about the Alamo.After taking a course on SanAntonio History for tour Guide purposes,I really got involved in getting to learn more about this special place,we call home.
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