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Old 12-10-2013, 05:48 AM
 
16,433 posts, read 22,107,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilGar View Post
How does one go from "speeding and driving erratically" to executed in ten minutes?
Miriam Carey. Executed.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:06 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 1,490,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilGar View Post
How does one go from "speeding and driving erratically" to executed in ten minutes?
Leaving your hyperbole aside...

In most every roadside shooting incident it goes from (insert mundane reason for traffic stop) to "shootout" very quickly. How else can it possibly work?

You are assuming that the moment the lights turn on for the stop is when the clock starts running. Nope, that is wrong. It is that way for the OFFICER....in almost all cases it is NOT that way for the person being pulled over. In most traffic stop shootings, the clock has been running for the Actor for a long time. He is in flight from a crime. He is in a state of mind. He is on the hunt......

The Officer is almost always the one who is surprised.

Anyone who has been involved in small unit or individual armed conflict can tell you, when things go bad they tend to go bad fast. It is the nature of the beast. An Officer can walk out of Starbucks at 12:30 with a cup of coffee and a smile. He met his wife up there, they kiss goodbye and have a mundane conversation about "lets eat at Rosarios on Thursday and then go get cake at Madhatters"...Officer gets into his car and pulls out at 12:32. Sees car going 59 in a 40 at 12:33. Makes contact at 12:35, as he says "Good afternoon, my name is Officer Friendly, the reason why you were stopped...." and at that exact moment, a guy who robbed a bank two hours ago in Austin pulls a gun and fires at the Officer at point blank range. The Officer knocks the guys hand out of the way and returns fire, killing the actor. It is now 12:38.

So you could say "how does someone go from speeding to being shot by the Police in 5 minutes....?" The answer is obvious. A bad guy has had hours on the "edge." The Officer has the time it took to process that a gun was being pointed at him.

....to make the point even more how strange the lives of Officers can be, Said Officer, who went though all of that has class for his Masters program at 8 that night...and he goes. He ends his night with his wife and kids at home. In a few days (because he will be on leave) he will head out and do such things again.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:29 AM
 
2,295 posts, read 2,353,134 times
Reputation: 2668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neshomamench View Post
Leaving your hyperbole aside...

In most every roadside shooting incident it goes from (insert mundane reason for traffic stop) to "shootout" very quickly. How else can it possibly work?

You are assuming that the moment the lights turn on for the stop is when the clock starts running. Nope, that is wrong. It is that way for the OFFICER....in almost all cases it is NOT that way for the person being pulled over. In most traffic stop shootings, the clock has been running for the Actor for a long time. He is in flight from a crime. He is in a state of mind. He is on the hunt......

The Officer is almost always the one who is surprised.

Anyone who has been involved in small unit or individual armed conflict can tell you, when things go bad they tend to go bad fast. It is the nature of the beast. An Officer can walk out of Starbucks at 12:30 with a cup of coffee and a smile. He met his wife up there, they kiss goodbye and have a mundane conversation about "lets eat at Rosarios on Thursday and then go get cake at Madhatters"...Officer gets into his car and pulls out at 12:32. Sees car going 59 in a 40 at 12:33. Makes contact at 12:35, as he says "Good afternoon, my name is Officer Friendly, the reason why you were stopped...." and at that exact moment, a guy who robbed a bank two hours ago in Austin pulls a gun and fires at the Officer at point blank range. The Officer knocks the guys hand out of the way and returns fire, killing the actor. It is now 12:38.

So you could say "how does someone go from speeding to being shot by the Police in 5 minutes....?" The answer is obvious. A bad guy has had hours on the "edge." The Officer has the time it took to process that a gun was being pointed at him.

....to make the point even more how strange the lives of Officers can be, Said Officer, who went though all of that has class for his Masters program at 8 that night...and he goes. He ends his night with his wife and kids at home. In a few days (because he will be on leave) he will head out and do such things again.

As one that was involved with small unit tactics and has seen a firefight or two over the past two decades, you are correct, things generally escalate quickly. The flip side is, when escalation of force procedures are used, they can also deescalate just as quickly. Not necessarily with an armed combatant, but with your average person that is getting too close to a convoy, acting suspicious near U.S. forces, etc. Point being, in most of the recent updates about the story, the officer involved relates that after making the stop, the victim became aggressive, ultimately taking the officer's baton and striking him. The officer then states that he knocked the baton away, and the subject continued to resist. The victim was then shot by the officer firing between 4-6 shots per witnesses. How in the world to you go from disarming the subject, to shooting an unarmed subject that is significantly smaller than you? That's quite a leap.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:30 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 1,490,850 times
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BTW, to help with my point about the fact that the Camera isnt often useful anyways...

[img]During a Monday afternoon news conference, Pruitt said it would not have mattered if he had the dash cam because Carter’s vehicle was facing away from the confrontation.[/img]

UIW: Student grabbed officer's baton before fatal shooting | News - Home
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:40 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 1,490,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXStrat View Post
As one that was involved with small unit tactics and has seen a firefight or two over the past two decades, you are correct, things generally escalate quickly. The flip side is, when escalation of force procedures are used, they can also deescalate just as quickly. Not necessarily with an armed combatant, but with your average person that is getting too close to a convoy, acting suspicious near U.S. forces, etc. Point being, in most of the recent updates about the story, the officer involved relates that after making the stop, the victim became aggressive, ultimately taking the officer's baton and striking him. The officer then states that he knocked the baton away, and the subject continued to resist. The victim was then shot by the officer firing between 4-6 shots per witnesses. How in the world to you go from disarming the subject, to shooting an unarmed subject that is significantly smaller than you? That's quite a leap.
As to deescalation I would like to emphasize what you said "Not necessarily with an armed combatant," just so people understand, once the bullets start flying, there is no deescalation. In most cases once the weapon is raised their is no deescalation. There is simply "end it" which is done with violence.

As to the rest of what you said, I dont know. I simply dont know. I have gone over a 1000 times in my head at what point would I shoot an unarmed person. Where is "my line" as a Police Officer. There are a few easy answers to that. If there are a lot of them. The other answer to that is if I ever find myself losing a fight. A cop can never lose a fight. It will cost him his life. Both of these situations are fairly well vetted "good shoot" reasons. (in other words, no matter how anyone feels about it, the courts have ruled that if those were the circumstances, it will most likely be a good shoot) A third one is often included, a rear choke hold. If a cop every finds himself in a rear choke hold, he has second to do something or it is probably his life.

I dont know what happened that night. I have been chargesda number of times by people who are known to me to be aggressive(because that is how they are acting). That is certainly the case here. We know the Officer didnt not have his impact weapon (what is generally my choice when being charged) because the actor took it and it was "knocked away. I dont know if he had a tazer or not. (many cops still dont have them, I dont carry one) and in all honesty, mace is a pretty weak option at the exact moment. So, he was left with going hands on or shooting the guy.

I dont know. I just dont know. I am on the larger side and I lift. I also have a good bit of experience. Going hands on is something I can do. Not everyone can.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:48 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 1,490,850 times
Reputation: 1080
Jsut a few more thoughts and again, I dont know...

But if you have a weapon, such as a knife or a club, I (and most officers as it is the standard) AM going to pull my sidearm and point it at you. If you come at an officer with such a weapon, it IS going to be a good shoot. The police dont taze people or mace people who have weapons. That is an equal response. You use those things on unarmed people. The Police always try to use one level higher of force than the Actor. That is how it works.

IF you had a weapon and I have my weapon drawn...then you lose that weapon (as is the case her) and then charge me before I can holster up...you could get shot. An officer cant let someone get their hands on them like that.

I dont know what happened but if the Officer was attacked while he had his weapon out, people MUST understand it is now a gun fight with a loose gun. That requires action. The police are taught to try and shoot if someone tries to take your gun from you.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:57 AM
 
2,295 posts, read 2,353,134 times
Reputation: 2668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neshomamench View Post
As to deescalation I would like to emphasize what you said "Not necessarily with an armed combatant," just so people understand, once the bullets start flying, there is no deescalation. In most cases once the weapon is raised their is no deescalation. There is simply "end it" which is done with violence.

As to the rest of what you said, I dont know. I simply dont know. I have gone over a 1000 times in my head at what point would I shoot an unarmed person. Where is "my line" as a Police Officer. There are a few easy answers to that. If there are a lot of them. The other answer to that is if I ever find myself losing a fight. A cop can never lose a fight. It will cost him his life. Both of these situations are fairly well vetted "good shoot" reasons. (in other words, no matter how anyone feels about it, the courts have ruled that if those were the circumstances, it will most likely be a good shoot) A third one is often included, a rear choke hold. If a cop every finds himself in a rear choke hold, he has second to do something or it is probably his life.

I dont know what happened that night. I have been chargesda number of times by people who are known to me to be aggressive(because that is how they are acting). That is certainly the case here. We know the Officer didnt not have his impact weapon (what is generally my choice when being charged) because the actor took it and it was "knocked away. I dont know if he had a tazer or not. (many cops still dont have them, I dont carry one) and in all honesty, mace is a pretty weak option at the exact moment. So, he was left with going hands on or shooting the guy.

I dont know. I just dont know. I am on the larger side and I lift. I also have a good bit of experience. Going hands on is something I can do. Not everyone can.
To be clear, I am not accusing anyone of wrong doing. Just stating that there is much that is still unknown. There are many questions left unanswered. Hopefully, a thorough investigation will determine what happened and why and provide some degree of closure to all involved. It is tragic that a young man had to lose his life.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:57 AM
 
1,175 posts, read 1,429,209 times
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I agree, and I hope the investigation is as transparent as possible to leave no doubt in anyone's mind that everything was above board.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:59 AM
 
Location: New Mexico U.S.A.
26,527 posts, read 51,514,065 times
Reputation: 31319
Three recent reports from different sources:

Catholic college police officer kills student after struggle, university says.
By Joshua Rubin, CNN
updated 4:14 AM EST, Tue December 10, 2013
Catholic college police officer kills student after traffic stop - CNN.com

Texas Student Fatally Shot by Campus Police After Traffic Stop
Dec. 9, 2013
By TARA BERARDI via Good Morning America
Texas Student Fatally Shot by Campus Police After Traffic Stop - ABC News

UIW student shot five times at close range during struggle, police say
by Dillon Collier & Bailey McGowan / Kens5.com
Posted on December 9, 2013 at 4:27 PM
Updated today (Dec 10, 2013) at 7:57 AM
UIW student shot five times at close range during struggle, police say | kens5.com San Antonio
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX via San Antonio, TX
9,843 posts, read 13,575,621 times
Reputation: 5701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merovee View Post
Impulsivity is a feature of BPD. So is speeding and other risky behavior.



Link lazy here so did not click. Anything we should know in that link? Feel free to PM as well and keep in mind DSM-V is widely criticized but I'm not claiming DSM-IV-TR is superior or didn't need an update either.
I really am confused about your credentials to diagnose someone based on a few articles about the incident. To diagnose someone properly you need to do a complete assessment, which you haven't. So let's not jump to any conclusions that this student had a personality disorder just because he did something risky. Everyone takes risks on a daily basis. Shoot, driving is a risk and we all take it.
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