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The point is that it is sickening that the avg person in Texas has to work one month or more to pay for his property taxes.
Well, we don't. We made a decision to live in a house that is "below our means" instead of "living large", and one of the factors in that decision was property taxes. Our prop tx are probably only 1/3 to maybe 1/2 of otherhalf's monthly salary. That's one of the "beauties" (and I use that term in jest) about property taxes vs. state income tax, is that you can control how much you pay when you make the decision of what/where to purchase. An income tax system kinda sux in that the more you make, the more you pay. Sooooo......
One thing is for sure ~ taxes SUCK, no matter how they're collected! That's just the truth of the matter. But as the old saying goes, "There's only 2 sure things in life, death and taxes". Every state handles tax collection in different ways, and I'd venture to guess that there's no a single person alive who's happy with the theirs! I'd love to see an analysis of the tax burden for different areas of the country. I had heard that our total tax burden is less than most of the rest of the country, but don't have the statistics.
AND, we're living in an increasingly socialistic society. Everyone wants this program and that program, and these roads, and this hand out....and.....and......and..... and all paid for by...(drumroll please!) THE GOVERNMENT!! And who funds "the government"? Yep, you got it ~ taxpayers! So when you really think about it, it's not BCAD that has it's hand in your pocket, it's all the people out there who think it's their right and that "the government" owes them all that stuff.
My personal opinion? If you're not willing to pay for all these programs/services by paying taxes (and I'm speaking generically here, imaterry, not directly to you) ~ then don't gripe about how we need new roads, and schools, and parks, and libraries, and programs for teenage mothers, and WIC/CCDS/CHIPS (insert any other welfare acronym here), and subsidies to farmers, and government funded health care, etc., etc.
(I know, I sound like I'm contradiciting myself, and I sort of am. But that's my ploy ~ so you can't really tell where I stand on those issues!! )
As someone who moved from Texas to Massachusetts, I have experience with the tax systems in both states. Texas has no income tax with very heavy property and sales taxes. Mass. has moderate (not the highest, not the lowest) sales, income, and property taxes. Overall, the tax burden in Mass. is higher, but not for everyone. And depending on your income, the house you own, and your spending habits, taxes can actually be less for some people in MA.
My point is this: difference between TX and MA taxes for most people is not nearly as big as Texans think.
Take an example: a middle class family earning $75K/year. They have a $200,000. house. This family purchases non-food items (consumer products, clothing, etc.) and eats out regularly.
In TX their property tax bill is $4000-$6000.
In MA their property tax bill is $2000-$3000.
In TX their income tax is 0
In MA their income tax is about $3,500
In TX they pay a higher sales tax rate on a greater percentage of their purchases than folks in MA:
In TX 25% of their income is spent on sales-tax eligible items at 8.25%; TX sales tax paid per year = $1546.
In MA 20% of their income is spent on sales tax eligible items at 5%; MA sales tax paid per year = $750.
If you add it all up, you'll see that the difference between the states is rather modest.
AW, BEAUTIFUL! PROPS!! That's the kind of comparison I'm looking for. I have a question, in your example, is the $200K home in both states similar (in other words ~ does $200K buy roughly the same size/type home in both states)? I ask this because I think that alot of times folks can buy so much more home for the money here in San Antonio, that they end up comparing the property taxes on, for example, the 4000sqft brand new Tuscan McMansion that they bought here for $500K to the 1000sqft home that they sold back home for $500K (and probably bought 15yrs ago for $175K ~ and that's what they were paying taxes on). It's not apples to apples.
Thanx for the logical comparison! I'd love to see more of those.
Thanx for the logical comparison! I'd love to see more of those.
Housing costs are higher in Massachusetts than Texas. Once again, however there are complicating factors that make apple-to-apples comparisons tricky.
Good quality housing in a safe area is available in the San Antonio area for relatively low amounts of money (<$200K). These houses will be out in the ‘burbs, but they’re there. There are many fewer options for folks in Mass. at that price point, and they are more likely to be either a condo/townhouse or a single family home in a less desirable area.
Thus, good middle-tier housing costs more in Mass. OTOH, the upscale/trendy area in San Antonio (Alamo Park/Terrell Hills/Olmos Park) is not that much more expensive than trendy areas in Mass. (SAT simply doesn’t have the really rich areas like Mass., so high end comparisons are more difficult) The big difference is in the middle points.
The main reason TX housing is cheaper is because TX has a major source of decent housing that MA simply does not have—big, newer, large-scale developments. TX has lots and lots of newer homes (by which I mean built since the 1980’s) in big, planned communities that were built by major developers. These houses are relatively large though built on pretty small lots (.25 acre is not uncommon). The developer clears the previously vacant land, offers buyers a choice of models and/or semi-custom designs, and then builds the neighborhood in a relatively short amount of time. Once Hillcrest Acres is filled, Acme Builders moves on to its next project, Buckingham Estates, etc.
In Mass. these big developments simply don’t exist. There isn’t as much unused land for such large scale developments (folks have been building houses here for 300+ years). Where there is such land, the public almost always vigorously opposes such large scale developments and the public will do all they can through their local government to try to stop big residential developments from happening. People in Mass., especially in suburban areas, often want a big, heavily treed lot that affords privacy and quiet. Mass. consumers are also generally happy with a smaller house. To some extent, this is due to an important feature that Texas houses don’t have—a basement.* To some extent this is due to the “bigger is better” ethos that permeates TX and is often directly at odds with the New England “less is more” and “be frugal” mindsets. (Texas motto: “Everything’s bigger in Texas.” New England motto: “Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.”)
So, imagine the following scenarios:
Scenario 1: A 4 bedroom, 3000 square foot newer house in a suburban San Antonio developer-built planned neighborhood. The houses are all approx. 15 feet away from their next door neighbor.
A San Antonio family might look at it and say: “It’s perfect”
A Massachusetts family might say: “It’s much too close to the neighbor’s house—I want more privacy and trees. There’s too much traffic in the area (because of all the other houses nearby). 3000 sq.ft. is a bit large for my needs. And there’s no basement.”
Scenario 2: A 3 bedroom, 2000 square foot house. It’s on a heavily treed 1 acre lot, thus the next door neighbor is 150 feet down the road. The home was built in the 1950’s and has a basement.
The San Antonio family might say: “It’s old, and much too small. The lot is a bit large for my needs—feels like we’re out in the country. I never see my neighbors. And what am I going to do with a basement?”
The Mass. family: “It’s perfect.”
Here’a another scenario:
Acme Builders has acquired a 200 acre farm and wants to turn it into its newest development, Rancho Relaxo, which will have 500 new homes.
San Antonio family: “That’s great! More housing choices! Maybe we can buy one of the new houses. The kids will attend the new school. The houses will be huge, and they’ll have granite kitchens and upstairs game rooms. We could even put in a pool. Imagine what grandma will think when she see’s it—she grew up in a three room shack with an outhouse on the plains of Texas.”
Mass. family: “Oh no! That land has been a farm since 1640. My grandfather chased rabbits on that land. All those new people moving in will mean more traffic on the roads, and our schools will become crowded. We must stop this developer lest we lose the beautiful scenery and charming New England character of our town, and we must preserve our cherished open space”
Because large scale development is very rare in Mass. (and very common in TX), housing supply is much more limited here. And, hence, more expensive.
Mass. is a very scenic place. Many of the Boston suburbs have some of the most attractive populated places in the U.S. The places oozes charm and history. Traffic is manageable. Bay Staters like it that way. But the houses are small and old, and it’s very expensive.
In Texas everything’s big and new. It’s affordable, making decent housing in reach for many. Texans like it that way. But the place is a traffic-choked strip mall, interspersed with large-scale residential developments with little intrinsic scenic beauty or charm.
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* A basement is usually the size of the footprint of the house. Thus, a 2000 sq.ft. simple colonial box house will have an approx. 1000 sq. ft. basement. The basement is part storage room, part bonus room. It can be finished and carpeted and turned into a playroom or study. Or it can be left unfinished and used as an enormous closet. Or both. A basement provides a huge amount of flex space that Texas homes simply don’t have. Basements are not usually included in square footage figures when they are not room-finished. Thus, a 3000 sq. ft. house in Mass. will have a lot more space than a 3000 sq.ft. house in TX.
Last edited by professorsenator; 11-30-2007 at 04:22 PM..
In Texas everything’s big and new. It’s affordable, making decent housing in reach for many. But the place is a traffic-choked strip mall, interspersed with forgettable large-scale residential developments with little real scenic beauty or charm.
Wow....I was with you and your interesting comparison until the above quote.....was it really necessary???
Some might say that not all of Mass. "oozes" charm as not all of Tx has "little real scenic beauty or charm".
Last edited by martinez4; 11-30-2007 at 04:16 PM..
Reason: changed from SA to Tx....keeping it state to state
In Texas everything’s big and new. It’s affordable, making decent housing in reach for many. But the place is a traffic-choked strip mall, interspersed with forgettable large-scale residential developments with little real scenic beauty or charm.
Quote:
Wow....I was with you and your interesting comparison until the above quote.....was it really necessary???
Some might say that not all of Mass. "oozes" charm as not all of Tx has "little real scenic beauty or charm".
I think he does a fair job describing a lot of new developments in Texas. I went to Killeen last weekend, and the newer areas were just as charmless and ugly as can be - strip mall, poorly built development, another strip mall, apartment complex, another development, lather rinse repeat.
I guess it depends on what a person likes. I think exurbs are ugly and sort of tragic, but I guess other people can find them attractive.
Some might say that not all of Mass. "oozes" charm as not all of TX has "little real scenic beauty or charm".
This is certainly true. Parts of Mass. are awful and parts of Texas are quite charming. I was speaking very generally, and overall, in my opinion, Massachusetts is more attractive than Texas. But it's also more expensive.
So if you want to sacrifice affordability for attractiveness, Mass. is probably a better choice. OTOH, if you prefer affordability over historic charm, then Texas has more places for you.
professorsenator (may I call you PS for short? ) ~ absolutely great post, wish I could rep you again, I'd give you twelve! (or some other random number)
professorsenator (may I call you PS for short? ) ~ absolutely great post, wish I could rep you again, I'd give you twelve! (or some other random number) "Rancho Relaxo"!! Fabulous!
Thank you for the kind words. Here's one more MA/TX comparison:
Mexican food in Mass: take some clams, wrap 'em in a supermarket tortilla, and top with marinara sauce
I have been looking at a state I would like to retire to down the road. After looking at how much home prices have increased in Florida and Arizona, I started researching Texas. It appears the real estate taxes in Texas are excrutiatingly high! It looks like people pay anywhere between 2.5-3.0% of their homes value a year. If you take a $500,000 home, that equals $15,000 per year!!! This is money that needs to come out of a person's retirement funds. How can the taxing jurisdictions expect people to pay this kind of money when they are retired? Given this exhorbinent amount of money, I will have to think long and hard about Texas.
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Residence fee:
Since they cut me off ... They (texas Counties) are collecting MILLIONS in "New Residence Fees" this practice would be better labeled anti-constitutional piracy. beware of Texas ... sorry to say ... dig deep before moving your family to a place that is MORE expensive than you could imagine.
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My wife and I would like to move to Texas, purchase a home and retire. We've been dragging our heels because of the high property taxes. It's reasonable to figure that our property taxes would be about $8,000 a year - multiply that by 10 and in ten years we've paid around $80,000 for government spending of which we'll never be the beneficiary - and when our retirement can no longer afford to pay the property taxes we'll have to sell our dream house that, de facto, we never owned since it can be stripped from us if we fail to come up with the money.
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We may be taxed when we go see a high school football game
It appears the real estate taxes in Texas are excrutiatingly high!....This is money that needs to come out of a person's retirement funds. How can the taxing jurisdictions expect people to pay this kind of money when they are retired?
You point out one of the biggest problems of relying too heavily on local property taxes. Property taxes tend to fall heavily on two groups:
1. Retirees with fixed incomes. This is, however, somewhat alleviated by the over 65 exemption that is (if memory serves correctly) universal throughout Texas. And if I recall correctly, there is some mechanism in some communities for property taxes to be frozen for homeowners above a certain age. This alleviates the problem somewhat, but it by no means solves it.
2. Working people who lose their jobs. In fact, these are the folks who get creamed the most by steep property taxes. Their income falls dramatically because they're out of work, but their tax bill remains very high with no method of relief. Losing your job means selling your home for many middle-class people in Texas.
Because Mass. has an income tax in addition to property taxes, these effects are lessened. Lose you job in the Bay State, and your tax bill drops significantly. And because property taxes are about half of what they are in Texas, unemployed homeowners find it a little bit easier to hold onto their homes until they find a new job. The filp side of this is that the income tax falls harder on higher income people than Texas' property tax.
Between a heavily reliance on sales taxes (which falls hardest on those who consume the greatest percentage of their income--i.e the poor and middle class) and high property taxes, Texas's tax system tilts the playing field heavily towards those with high incomes and against those at the lower end of the economic ladder.
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That's the kind of comparison I'm looking for. I have a question, in your example, is the $200K home in both states similar (in other words ~ does $200K buy roughly the same size/type home in both states)? I ask this because I think that alot of times folks can buy so much more home for the money here in San Antonio, that they end up comparing the property taxes on, for example, the 4000sqft brand new Tuscan McMansion that they bought here for $500K to the 1000sqft home that they sold back home for $500K (and probably bought 15yrs ago for $175K ~ and that's what they were paying taxes on). It's not apples to apples. 
professorsenator's long (informative) post
) ~ absolutely great post, wish I could rep you again, I'd give you twelve! (or some other random number)
