The "Hispanic" ethnic group in San Antonio (Howe: buy, land)

[yosoyway]

Very interesting topic.

My family is from a small ranch in northern Tamaulipas.

My great grandfather is from Mexico but my great grandmother is from Colorado and they married in Colorado. My grandmother was born in Colorado but after her mother died they followed the railroad to northern mexico. He worked for the railroad company.

We have met some people here in S.A. that are from Spain and have asked if we are from Spain. They have commented that we look like from norther Spain. I always say no. I'm from Mexico.

At the ranch where my family is from, there was a family who had deep blue eyes, white skin and blonde hair. But they were Mexican. How they ended up there was always a mystery to us.

[torero]

It is well known that the peoples of the pacific islands have a high incidence of diabetes and obesity. Many speculate that this may have been due to a process of natural selection, where the individuals that were better able to conserve and store energy in the form of fat, were able to withstand and survive long periods of starvation during thier migration form mainland Asia to the different islands in the pacific. Apparently, before reaching their final destination (islands with food), they had to do stops in smaller islands that didn’t have much more than water.

I think that phenotypically certain native Americans (broadly speaking) are quite similar to the people form certain regions of south east Asia / Pacific Islands. In fact I have a close friend who lives in New York State (a Hispanic, native of Cd Victoria, Tamaulipas) whom everybody thinks is from the Philippines.

Interestingly, the incidence of diabetes and obesity is quite high here in south Texas. It makes me wonder if a selection process was operative as well.

On a related note, I think many of the questions in this thread will be answered as the field of population genetics flourishes.

[kenshin522]

Most Native Populations of the world do indeed have a problem with tolerating fooods with higher fat content... Including Native Americans, Pacific Islands, and Australian Aborigines.

I agree with you Torero, there are some Native Americans that look ALOT like asians... I've seen Quechuas from Peru who look no different from Tibetan Chinese and a lot of Navajo soldiers in the US Army were mistaken during WWII as Japanese soldiers. Some of them had to prove that infact they were Navajo when they landed up being 'captured' by their American allies.

As a side note... Many Mestizos can look very much white... Eg. Christina Aguilera. But some do show physical features which are quite distinct which would give evidence of admixture... However not everyone from Latin America is infact Mestizo/Indian as others noted... Argentians are mostly European of Spanish and Italian ancestry. Northern Mexico is predominately more Caucasoid than anything else aside from Tarahumaras in Chihuahua.

Yosoyway, it's probable that the blue eyed/blond-haired Mexican family you knew had ancestors from France, Germany or any other country in Europe. Mexico was not only home to Spanish immigrants but also to Germans, French, English, Irish, Dutch, and Italians.

Most people however only believe in the stereotypical view of a Mexican, which is that portrayed by hollywood and that what we see most of. People hear Mexican and see a Mestizo or an Indian. Rarely do they think different. But hey, others are guilty of this same thing with Americans. Not all Americans are Europeans or Blacks either. Quite a few are Asian.

I remember once talking to someone whom I had never actually sat down and talked with but I had seen them before. After holding a conversation they asked me what I was. When I went on to say I'm ... this and this... and part Mexican.. They replied with "But Mexicans are white". Later they went on to ask if I could read English. I dont have anymore of an accent than a typical Texan.. Infact, when I was younger I talked like a (no offense) redneck, real southern accent. LOL. Thankfully I think I've manged to get out of it.

[imaterry78259]

Native Americans are frpm the Asian race. Miced that with North African and Europeans and you get a Mexicans

[kenshin522]

Native American genotype is distinct from the Asian races of today. Mexican is just a nationality. Most of them are halfbreed Indian/whites. There are some Zambas(half indian/black or black/native/white) but they are mostly concetrated in the coastal cities and villages of Veracruz where many black slaves were present.

[florida southerner 3]

Originally Posted by Goominim

Hello Kenshin, Thanks for your interesting post. This is my first. Hello all! I'm a hispanic male, and have sometimes wondered about my ancestry. I know very little about it. I do know that my parents were born here (both are in their 80s), and that my grandparents came from Mexico when they were young. Not much was taught in public school about the hispanic population, from what I remember. I don't even think the word hispanic was used back then (was it?) - I'm in my 40s. I have been mistaken for being Asian on mutiple occassions, though I am relatively dark complected. You relate Asianic features to Native Americans (are all "Native Americans" from what is now the US?), but mentioned that they are light complected. I wonder where I fit in with all this?

The entire Aboriginal American population from South America, North America (Caribbean included) are of ancient stock. There is even some evidence that an ancient tribe of Canaanites (Black people), known as the Anakites, were defeated by the Israelites, fled far away and ended up in Hibernia (Ireland), where they were called Fomorians by the Firbolgs (early Irish peoples). After a few wars, the Firbolgs finally drove the Fomorians away, obviously many Firbolgs (White) leaving, possibly by force, with the Fomorians (Black).

Shortly thereafter, the Olmec civilization arose in Mexico. The ancient Olmecs carved out huge statues many which have noticeable Black features. Other renderings depict people with White features. The Olmecs as did their later cousins even practice the same or similar religious ceremonies as the ancient Canaanites--human sacrifice being one such commonality. Place names being other clues that branch the Canaanites and Olmecs. Over time, mixing, and inbreading within small populations led to certain physical traits surfacing. However, their descendants today are still a Mulatto people with black being more prevalent since the Canaanites were larger in number than the Firbolgs who went with them!

Similar occurrences lead to the formation of all Aboriginal American peoples. Ancient Blacks, Whites, and Mulattos crossed oceans and land bridges to the Americas till about 200 AD when all but stopped. By the time Colombo reached the Americas, these people had been more or less mixing and mingling until most were varying degrees of Mulatto tribes. However, during the colonial times, there were still reports of Black "Indian" tribes and White "Indian" tribes in remote places of the Americas--all of this prior to the slave trade as well so it can't be counted as runaway slaves or modern Whites gone native! The point being is that all people on Earth are either Black, predominantly Black, White, predominantly White, or varying degrees of visible, noticeable Mulattos! Indian, Native American, Pacific Islander, Hispanic, Latino, Asian, African, Middle Eastern, Arab, Caucasian, are clearly not races! But we're really all of one race--THE HUMAN RACE!

[florida southerner 3]

Originally Posted by yosoyway

Very interesting topic.

My family is from a small ranch in northern Tamaulipas.

My great grandfather is from Mexico but my great grandmother is from Colorado and they married in Colorado. My grandmother was born in Colorado but after her mother died they followed the railroad to northern mexico. He worked for the railroad company.

We have met some people here in S.A. that are from Spain and have asked if we are from Spain. They have commented that we look like from norther Spain. I always say no. I'm from Mexico.

At the ranch where my family is from, there was a family who had deep blue eyes, white skin and blonde hair. But they were Mexican. How they ended up there was always a mystery to us.

The USA is not the only melting pot in the Americas. Mexico has had immigration from other nations as well. The blond, blue-eyed Mexican who is White is obviously a descendant of the Spaniards, or possibly the French who also controlled Mexico for a period, and also Germans, and Italians. I realize that not all Spaniards, Frenchmen, Germans and Italians have blond hair and blue eyes, but many of them do, and 99.9 percent of Spaniards, Frenchmen, Germans, and Italians are White whether they are blond with blue eyes or brunet with brown eyes! Today's White Mexican is a descendant of these and most likely other White peoples. Incidentally, there's hardly any difference from Northern Spaniards and Southern Spaniards. There both White peoples.

[Gennaver]

Originally Posted by ilmd

Gennaver- I asked two of my nurse friends who also worked BIA/IHS what they felt about the cross terminology. They both didn't have any preference- to us, at least it is really the same. One of them said she hears the term 'reservation/res alot when describing work. It doesn't matter which abbreviation someone uses to us. It is like asking a person if he wants a 'soda', or a 'pop'- same thing. It might make a difference what you call it because of where you live in the US.

Hi,
If it is like soda or pop then I hail from the Indian world of IHS and not Fed.

As an indigenous person the Federal term B.I.A. is not a positive connotation and anyone who works with, respects and treats Tribal Members as patients might want to consider who it is that they are working for, the Tribal members or the Federal gov't. Then again, we all know that F.B.I. stands for Full Blooded Indian, right?

I self identify as NDN too but since I'm not from tribal lands I do not feel qualified to call it rez but, reservation.
Cheers,
Gen

[florida southerner 3]

The Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) and the Indian Health Service (IHS) and the term NDN for Indian are all misnomers. People say they self identify as whatever such as an NDN. However, self identification is extremely biased and clouds facts more or less depending on the individual. I am a White man. I am not White because I choose to be or because I simply self identify as such. I am what I am, therefore I identify with what is. My ancestry is predominantly Spanish and French with a small percentage of Cherokee. In other words, what I am determines my identification, not vice versa. As a matter of fact, Indians are citizens of India. India holds claim to that name and they alone. If Colombo had thought he was in China, kids would be playing Cowboys and Chinese today! Indian or NDN it makes no difference. It's confusing because people are using a single term to designate more than one nationality, which is totally ludacris.

Native American is also a wrongly used moniker due to the fact that anybody born in a nation is rightfully a native of that land or nation. The most accurate, common sense, and logical term to collectively call the indigenous peoples of the Americas is Aboriginal Americans. It doesn't contradict, overlap, or infringe.

Take the modern Spaniards for instance. And there is a point if you'll bear with me. If someone says they're a Native Spaniard what do you think is meant by that? Obviously they're someone born and raised as a 100 percent national of Spain. However, though the Spaniards all speak a Latin language, their ancestries are varied. In Pre-Roman Spain, their lived the Iberians and Celts and a mixture of the 2 known as Celtiberians. Both Celts and Iberians were White. In the northern areas there also lived the Basques who are White. In the coastal areas there were small Greek and Phoenician outposts--the Greeks being White and the Phoenicians being originally Black but increasingly Mixed with White over the years. There also was the Tartessians who were White. Then came the Romans (Latins) who were White. They subjugated and assimilated the peoples of Hispania (Spain) and Romanized them and added it as a province to the empire. Then after the fall of the western half of the Roman Empire, the Goths, a Teutonic tribe who were White, invaded Spain. Then the Moors came. They were a conglomerate of nationalities bound together by Islam and invaded Spain. The Moors were mainly a Mulatto people, but large numbers of Whites and substantial numbers of Blacks were among them as well.

So there it is. Todays Spaniard is predominantly a mix of Celts (Nordic White), Iberians (Nordic-Mediterranean White), Basques (predominantly a Nordic-Mediterranean White mix with small percentage of Black), Greeks (predominantly Nordic White with substantial Mediterranean White admixture), Phoenicians (Mediterranean White and Black), Tartessians (Nordic White), Romans (predominantly Nordic White with Mediterranean White admixture), Goths (Nordic White), and Moors (predominantly Mediterranean White-Black mix with small amounts of Nordic White). So again, who is a Native Spaniard? Is it one of Celtic or Iberian ancestry? Or is it one of Greek, Tartessian, Phoenician, or Basque ancestry? Is it one of Roman ancestry especially since all Spaniards speak a Latin language courtesy of the Romans? Or is it a Spaniard of Gothic ancestry, or Moorish ancestry who themselves are a multiplicity of ancestries to boot?

I said all that to say this. A Spaniard is a Spaniard today regardless of their ancient or medieval ancestry or who conquered who way back when. They're all Spaniards today regardless. Spaniards are largley a Nordic-Mediterranean mix--both White with smaller Black component as well in their genetics.

This should apply to Americans as well, whether we're descended from British, Spanish, French, Irish, German, Italian, Cherokee, Lumbee, Pawnee, Aztec, Toltec, Mayan, etc., etc., etc. We're all American regardless just as all Spaniards are Spaniards regardless. Should a Spaniard of Celtiberian ancestry demand reparations and separate identification from the Spaniards of Roman ancestry who subjugated and Romanized them. I may be a little off topic here, but it relates and makes a point. It shows the foolishness of separating people within a single nationality into smaller, more polarized factions within a nation. It leads to dissent, strife, chaos, and ultimately anarchy!

[kenshin522]

Originally Posted by florida southerner 3

The entire Aboriginal American population from South America, North America (Caribbean included) are of ancient stock. There is even some evidence that an ancient tribe of Canaanites (Black people), known as the Anakites, were defeated by the Israelites, fled far away and ended up in Hibernia (Ireland), where they were called Fomorians by the Firbolgs (early Irish peoples). After a few wars, the Firbolgs finally drove the Fomorians away, obviously many Firbolgs (White) leaving, possibly by force, with the Fomorians (Black).

Shortly thereafter, the Olmec civilization arose in Mexico. The ancient Olmecs carved out huge statues many which have noticeable Black features. Other renderings depict people with White features. The Olmecs as did their later cousins even practice the same or similar religious ceremonies as the ancient Canaanites--human sacrifice being one such commonality. Place names being other clues that branch the Canaanites and Olmecs. Over time, mixing, and inbreading within small populations led to certain physical traits surfacing. However, their descendants today are still a Mulatto people with black being more prevalent since the Canaanites were larger in number than the Firbolgs who went with them!

Similar occurrences lead to the formation of all Aboriginal American peoples. Ancient Blacks, Whites, and Mulattos crossed oceans and land bridges to the Americas till about 200 AD when all but stopped. By the time Colombo reached the Americas, these people had been more or less mixing and mingling until most were varying degrees of Mulatto tribes. However, during the colonial times, there were still reports of Black "Indian" tribes and White "Indian" tribes in remote places of the Americas--all of this prior to the slave trade as well so it can't be counted as runaway slaves or modern Whites gone native! The point being is that all people on Earth are either Black, predominantly Black, White, predominantly White, or varying degrees of visible, noticeable Mulattos! Indian, Native American, Pacific Islander, Hispanic, Latino, Asian, African, Middle Eastern, Arab, Caucasian, are clearly not races! But we're really all of one race--THE HUMAN RACE!

The Olmec people are a real controversial bunch in the history field. There is no solid facts however that they were African, Greek, Aliens or any thing other than Native Americans. The Olmecs are infact the ancestors of today's Maya people whom also used the Olmec numeral systems and writing systems. Physically many Mayas show the exact same features as the Olmec statues. The face on these statues is that of a morphed Human/Jaguar, since they believed themselves to be decendants of these cats. In the native Populations of south Mexico and Central America there is no pre-columbus African admixture.

As far as Black Indians go... I do not know how they were classifying them.. But A LOT of Native Americans below the USA do infact have pretty dark skin colours some being very close to black... Including the Tarahumaras of Chihuahua, some of the groups of central Mexico, and Uros Indians of Lake Titicaca, Bolivia. What is different about their skin is that unlike Africans their skin is drier and has a slight reddish undertone... Much like Australian Aborigines.

One has to understand that back in those days people very rarely looked at the bone structures of people and went on colour... So many of these black and white Indians may infact of been pure blood indians of a darker or lighter nature or decendants of slaves. Whites were adopted into tribes just as blacks were.


Florida southerner: There are actually to terms that look exactly alike but describe the different people...

Native American, which describes an Indigenous person of the Americas (not just the USA)

and native American, which describes a citizen of the USA.

So many people are arguing about the American name... Everyone wants to be called it... I've argued with people before who are from Mexico, honduras or Bolivia who demanded they be called Americans because they are from America.
I guess it makes sense. After all, we do call Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, and other east Asians - Asians.
Though we do leave out the Indians and Pakistanis amongst other nations...