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Old 12-24-2007, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Diyallusss, TX
1,805 posts, read 4,359,481 times
Reputation: 559

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
My only problem with this is:

Are all drunk drivers alcoholics? No.

Are all alcoholics drunk drivers? No.

I think that's where people have a problem swallowing this. It implies or infers (I always get those mixed up) that there is a choice involved, or at least that's the way I see it. I was married to an alcoholic but he absolutely refused to drive while drinking. Whereas I work with a kid, (he's early 20's, therefore a kid), and I don't think he's an alcoholic (but he may well be) but he drinks and drives on a continuous basis.
Well, I'm not sure which part you are having the problem with.....
With an alcoholic the power of choice is lost early on in their drinking career. That is, the power of choice to drink or not drink, and CERTAINLY the power of choice to stop at one - or at ANY number.
This is what research and science tells us.
If this kid you work with drinks and drives on a continuous basis, he is very likely an alcoholic. But only HE can find the true answer to that.
I have been around and known a HUGE number of alcoholics in three different states and I never ever met one who "refused" to drive after drinking. Not a single one. I have to say, that is truly one of the oddest situations I've encountered in any alcoholic anywhere.
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Old 12-24-2007, 10:53 PM
Status: "Amused by Blue" (set 16 days ago)
 
14,628 posts, read 31,228,591 times
Reputation: 6683
Quote:
Originally Posted by PopsGuysRule View Post
Well, I'm not sure which part you are having the problem with.....
With an alcoholic the power of choice is lost early on in their drinking career. That is, the power of choice to drink or not drink, and CERTAINLY the power of choice to stop at one - or at ANY number.
This is what research and science tells us.
If this kid you work with drinks and drives on a continuous basis, he is very likely an alcoholic. But only HE can find the true answer to that.
I have been around and known a HUGE number of alcoholics in three different states and I never ever met one who "refused" to drive after drinking. Not a single one. I have to say, that is truly one of the oddest situations I've encountered in any alcoholic anywhere.
We are friends with another couple, both of whom are functioning alcoholics, and they won't drive while drinking either. The kid at work is just young and stupid, if you ask me. I am not trying to argue with you about alcoholism. It's a terrible disease and I know alcohol causes more harm than many other substances. I just don't see where alcoholics should get a "but I'm an alcoholic and can't help myself" card when it comes to drinking and driving.
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:05 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
8,400 posts, read 20,173,551 times
Reputation: 4435
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
I just don't see where alcoholics should get a "but I'm an alcoholic and can't help myself" card when it comes to drinking and driving.
BINGO! Now we have the clearest distinction between empathy/sympathy for alcoholics and distain toward anyone who drinks and drives!

It doesn't matter if a drunk driver has a disease or a one-time lapse in judgment, there is no excuse for drinking and driving, and doing so should result in justice equal to had the person premeditatively killed someone with a gun. Statistics show that the law is too lenient on drunk drivers, which is why that phenomenon has (unfortunately) not gone away. How many more innocents lives need to be lost?

Cheers! M2
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:06 PM
Status: "Amused by Blue" (set 16 days ago)
 
14,628 posts, read 31,228,591 times
Reputation: 6683
Quote:
Originally Posted by PopsGuysRule View Post
Well, I'm not sure which part you are having the problem with.....
With an alcoholic the power of choice is lost early on in their drinking career. That is, the power of choice to drink or not drink, and CERTAINLY the power of choice to stop at one - or at ANY number.
This is what research and science tells us.
If this kid you work with drinks and drives on a continuous basis, he is very likely an alcoholic. But only HE can find the true answer to that.
I have been around and known a HUGE number of alcoholics in three different states and I never ever met one who "refused" to drive after drinking. Not a single one. I have to say, that is truly one of the oddest situations I've encountered in any alcoholic anywhere.
The part I am having the problem with was the post where you stated that there is NO difference between an alcoholic and a drunk driver. I don't think that is a fact.
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Old 12-25-2007, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Diyallusss, TX
1,805 posts, read 4,359,481 times
Reputation: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
We are friends with another couple, both of whom are functioning alcoholics, and they won't drive while drinking either. The kid at work is just young and stupid, if you ask me. I am not trying to argue with you about alcoholism. It's a terrible disease and I know alcohol causes more harm than many other substances. I just don't see where alcoholics should get a "but I'm an alcoholic and can't help myself" card when it comes to drinking and driving.
PLEASE show me ANYWHERE in any of my posts where I EVER said 'alcoholics should get a "but I'm an alcoholic and can't help myself" card when it comes to drinking and driving." Where, ever? NOT ONCE have I even come CLOSE to saying that.

It has become quite clear to me that people are not even READING my posts about this. I, in fact, have CLEARLY stated the OPPOSITE of this.

The differences here is that most of you see it as a moral issue. The medical and scientific communities see it as a medical issue.

I am sorry I even printed one word about this; I have been misquoted half the time and the other half of the time, people read one or two lines ONLY and spout back how 'sympathetic' I am to drunks.
I should have known better than to try to bring FACTS into this thread.
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Old 12-25-2007, 03:41 PM
Status: "Amused by Blue" (set 16 days ago)
 
14,628 posts, read 31,228,591 times
Reputation: 6683
Whooooaaa!! Calm down!! This thread started out being about the accident where Erica was left for dead. Yes, the EMT's should be investigated. However, the point is, there would be no victims "left for dead" were it not for the alleged drunk driver in this case. I don't give 2 hoots whether she is an alcoholic or how bad her daddy treated her or how sorry her life is. The fact is she chose to imbibe, chose to get behind the wheel of her car, and the tragic result of her choices is a dead woman who never gets to choose anything ever again. I don't know why we have to care about what got us to this point. It is what it is. It will happen again and again until we all get fed up enough to change the penalties for this crime.

No disrespect to you, Holly, but sheesh. Can you just admit that there is one person to blame here, and that is the drunk driver?
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Old 12-25-2007, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Diyallusss, TX
1,805 posts, read 4,359,481 times
Reputation: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by majormadmax View Post
BINGO! Now we have the clearest distinction between empathy/sympathy for alcoholics and distain toward anyone who drinks and drives!

It doesn't matter if a drunk driver has a disease or a one-time lapse in judgment, there is no excuse for drinking and driving, and doing so should result in justice equal to had the person premeditatively killed someone with a gun. Statistics show that the law is too lenient on drunk drivers, which is why that phenomenon has (unfortunately) not gone away. How many more innocents lives need to be lost?

Cheers! M2
And once more....
Never ever ever did I say, in this thread or anywhere else, that anyone ANYONE, who kills or injures someone should NOT pay the fullest price available.

NEVER - show me where I ever ever said that. I, in fact, have said the opposite: I said it clearly and SEVERAL times....

My point is, and HAS BEEN ALL ALONG, that even though they should pay a price in the form of a prison term, IF YOU DO NOT TREAT THE ALCOHOLISM, NOTHING WILL CHANGE. THEY WILL DRINK AND DRIVE AGAIN THE DAY THEY ARE RELEASED FROM PRISON.

If you don't believe me, fine. That is why I have posted numerous links to organizations that have staff that is far smarter than I and THEY are the ones who classify this as a disease.

But go ahead, lock them up in some hell hole somewhere and give them comic books to read and whatever else the hell they do in there. On their release date, just give them a dirty look on the way out: that'll fix everything......
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Old 12-25-2007, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Diyallusss, TX
1,805 posts, read 4,359,481 times
Reputation: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
The part I am having the problem with was the post where you stated that there is NO difference between an alcoholic and a drunk driver. I don't think that is a fact.
Please show me the post. I don't believe I ever said that.

But, now that you mention it, it's probably not FAR off base.

But who gives a damn anyway; if they drink, drive and injure or kill someone, just lock them up.

On their release date, keep your babies inside and all your loved ones off the road.
I didn't realize how many people on this forum don't know how to read.
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Old 12-25-2007, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Diyallusss, TX
1,805 posts, read 4,359,481 times
Reputation: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
Whooooaaa!! Calm down!! This thread started out being about the accident where Erica was left for dead. Yes, the EMT's should be investigated. However, the point is, there would be no victims "left for dead" were it not for the alleged drunk driver in this case. I don't give 2 hoots whether she is an alcoholic or how bad her daddy treated her or how sorry her life is. The fact is she chose to imbibe, chose to get behind the wheel of her car, and the tragic result of her choices is a dead woman who never gets to choose anything ever again. I don't know why we have to care about what got us to this point. It is what it is. It will happen again and again until we all get fed up enough to change the penalties for this crime.

No disrespect to you, Holly, but sheesh. Can you just admit that there is one person to blame here, and that is the drunk driver?
Jesus Christ!! DO none of you know how to read???
Where, show me, SHOW ME EXACTLY WHERE I ever ever ever said that a drunk driver should not pay a price for his/her actions?
You did not and will not ever ever hear that coming from me.

But you know what, clearly I am talking to people who have a strong OPINION and will not, can not l......... good lord, forget it.......
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Old 12-25-2007, 04:32 PM
Status: "Amused by Blue" (set 16 days ago)
 
14,628 posts, read 31,228,591 times
Reputation: 6683
Quote:
Originally Posted by PopsGuysRule View Post
First of all, I don't 'sympathize' with any alcoholics anywhere. I do 'empathize' with them, however.
But what you say makes no sense! Once the alcohol is in the body, the mind is affected and the drinker (whether it be an alcoholic or a 'social drinker') has no ability to make sane choices anymore.

But you know, I give up. If the medical field, the American Medical Association, and the National Council on Alcoholism can't convince you that this is a disease, then surely, I cannot. All of your replies lead me to believe that you have not even looked at the links I've provided.
And I surely can't convince you that - in reality, there is NO difference between an alcoholic and a drunk driver.
So, whatever, M2.
I'm sure you'll come up with a solution somehow.
If I'm reading this correctly, in bold there is where you said there is NO difference between an alcoholic and a drunk driver. You don't have to bash me.
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