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Old 09-14-2017, 09:48 AM
 
3,130 posts, read 5,146,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL View Post
Just wait until the firefighters walk out and your house is on fire. I bet you'd get involved then.
FYI- nearly all contracts between U.S. municipalities and their firefighters and police officer's unions have clauses that prohibit their members from participating in strikes, or walking off the job; even when a contract expires.


I'm assuming that would apply to San Antonio, as well. I can't say I've heard of protective services employees in any major city walking out in recent memory.
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:58 AM
 
5,613 posts, read 6,392,105 times
Reputation: 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by huckster View Post
Yes, screwing off a million dollars in frivolous lawsuits....surely trap , there are a lot of backwards people in this vicinity that know not a thing about labor contracts that love to write nonsense and waste money.
A favorite past time of the unschooled.
Let them spout away here. Hilarious.........
A million dollars is a tidy sum. Keep a goin'.
I said I see what he is saying. I did not say I am in agreement.
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Old 09-15-2017, 06:56 PM
 
2,721 posts, read 3,402,584 times
Reputation: 1536
Default Nah,

An expired contract is not enforceable. During the Air Traffic controllers strike of the early eighties the Controllers walked.
Reagan famously, in the hallmark act of his presidency, had to call that walkout a violation of Federal Law. They were all fired.

No- however the New York City garbage pickers have gone on strike and really made a mess of things in up poster Pancho Villa's hometown.
I have watched suit and tie Yuppies collecting garbage during a Teamsters strike against Waste Management Inc. Honestly. Somebody had to at least try and collect the garbage and the Bean Counters were the only employees left still working for the company that were not in the Teamsters Union. This was hilarious.
The coffee and doughnuts had to wait.
One striker lit the landfill on fire by night in an attempt to bring the company to its' knees. He was caught but in protest started up his own Waste Company to compete with Waste Mgmt. Became quite successful too.
Strikers pay is $50.00 per day unless one gets "Hosed" as in fire hosed by the authorities. One gets extra pay for that.
The garbage piling high on the sidewalks was worse because it brings out the rats, insects, diseases, etc out onto the sidewalks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ged_782 View Post
FYI- nearly all contracts between U.S. municipalities and their firefighters and police officer's unions have clauses that prohibit their members from participating in strikes, or walking off the job; even when a contract expires.


I'm assuming that would apply to San Antonio, as well. I can't say I've heard of protective services employees in any major city walking out in recent memory.
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:41 PM
 
6,998 posts, read 10,219,563 times
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Texas law prohibits firefighters and police officers from striking.

From what I've seen, it appears that SA firefighters are paid well. SAPD and BCSO (including the detention officers who everyone forgets about even though their job is dangerous) are not paid competitive salaries in comparison to other major cities in Texas.

As far as waiting 60 months to become vested, I've seen this a lot in government jobs.

I've worked in the public safety field for many years. I do not believe firefighters and police officers deserve to be paid as much as doctors. Those careers require a high school diploma, much less training, and fewer skills. There are blue collar jobs with higher death and injury rates than law enforcement that demand lower wages than law enforcement.

Correctional officer have some of the highest rates of work-related injuries. They have an injury rate from assaults that is 36 times higher than average, but I never hear the public talk about how they should be paid more. More often, I hear people who say that their $35k salaries or less are too high for "babysitting" adults as if some of these people aren't violent criminals who are incarcerated because they are a risk to public safety.

Last edited by L210; 09-15-2017 at 07:56 PM..
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:36 PM
 
2,721 posts, read 3,402,584 times
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Yes, it is common , probably usual, for there to be a 5 year period to get vested for a job.
It used to be 5 yrs of service only qualified for 50% vestment.

Persons in the mining and heavy and highway construction industry have the highest rate of mortality of any field. 5000 deaths annually. This is a far higher death rate than police, firefighters or even soldiering.
This statistic changes annually. Sometimes logging wins out in the race for deaths per 100,000 workers, sometimes commercial fishing, rises to the top but so many are involved in mining all over the world that is is usually the industry with the most deaths annually.
Always has been.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L210 View Post
Texas law prohibits firefighters and police officers from striking.

From what I've seen, it appears that SA firefighters are paid well. SAPD and BCSO (including the detention officers who everyone forgets about even though their job is dangerous) are not paid competitive salaries in comparison to other major cities in Texas.

As far as waiting 60 months to become vested, I've seen this a lot in government jobs.

I've worked in the public safety field for many years. I do not believe firefighters and police officers deserve to be paid as much as doctors. Those careers require a high school diploma, much less training, and fewer skills. There are blue collar jobs with higher death and injury rates than law enforcement that demand lower wages than law enforcement.

Correctional officer have some of the highest rates of work-related injuries. They have an injury rate from assaults that is 36 times higher than average, but I never hear the public talk about how they should be paid more. More often, I hear people who say that their $35k salaries or less are too high for "babysitting" adults as if some of these people aren't violent criminals who are incarcerated because they are a risk to public safety.
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:54 PM
 
Location: New Braunfels, TX
6,256 posts, read 8,968,778 times
Reputation: 6340
Quote:
Originally Posted by L210 View Post
I've worked in the public safety field for many years. I do not believe firefighters and police officers deserve to be paid as much as doctors. Those careers require a high school diploma, much less training, and fewer skills. There are blue collar jobs with higher death and injury rates than law enforcement that demand lower wages than law enforcement.

Correctional officer have some of the highest rates of work-related injuries. They have an injury rate from assaults that is 36 times higher than average, but I never hear the public talk about how they should be paid more. More often, I hear people who say that their $35k salaries or less are too high for "babysitting" adults as if some of these people aren't violent criminals who are incarcerated because they are a risk to public safety.
LEO's "enjoy" a high divorce and suicide rate, and can be sued penniless by any citizen with a beef - and as has been shown time and again (thanks to camera systems), the accusations are often groundless. I have NO issue with a rogue cop being sued - but all too often, the false accusations made against LEO's aren't punished.

I have a son that's an LEO. He's currently sitting on 400 hours of "comp time" (which is max), because they don't have the budget to pay him OT. He's got 384 hrs of vacation time due him (which is max), because they don't have the budget to hire more officers so he can actually USE his vacation time. He's also accrued over 300 hrs of sick time - and often goes in even though he's sick, because they're short-staffed. Tell me what other job can say "sorry, we can't pay you for your OT". He continues to do his job because he cares about the citizens he's sworn to protect, just as many other officers and firefighters do. When the guy doped out of his mind is in the middle of the street, swinging the machete and threatening to impale that little girl, it's men and women like him that will give up their own lives to save hers.

And according to this study, Texas nonfatal injury rates in 2015 were led by Police....

https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/osh/os/pr156tx.pdf
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Old 09-16-2017, 06:00 AM
 
520 posts, read 599,036 times
Reputation: 489
Just want to chime in on an opportunity to use my never-used labor relations degree coursework. I don't have a dog in this hunt.

The Evergreen Clause sounds like a pretty standard concession for public safety employees (10 years seems bit long from my limited reading). These concessions aren't because of goodwill of the employer - they are because as public safety employees, labor's biggest weapon, strike, is off the table. It (kind of) levels the field a bit in future negotiations. Even without the explicit Evergreen Clause, traditionally the previous contract would remain in effect - again, because we are talking public safety workers who can't strike and be forced to work without pay or have terms of employment unilaterally changed. You can debate the validity of public unions all you want but it doesn't change the current reality.

Now consider this, while the Evergreen Clause is in effect, wages are essentially frozen, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it provides a sort of timer for labor to reach an agreement as each year the wages slip a little further behind the increasing CoL. Regardless of how long this takes, they will be making more once a new contract is negotiated. Meanwhile the medical issue will in the near term become a moot point as I don't think a universal healthcare system is too far off.
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Old 09-16-2017, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Texas
5,619 posts, read 12,880,559 times
Reputation: 10693
The previous negotiations had the city in the position that they wanted fewer firemen. The firemens position was that they had what was necessary to properly run their equipment and any less would endanger lives of the people they are suppose to protect and the firemen. It got bloody and when it was over, the city pretty much took a black eye over it. I'm aware that the firemen can't strike as such but they do have the right to vacation time and sick leave, all can be used just like a strike if need be. They also have the right to look for work in a different city where they get the proper support from the community and their city council. Once these folks leave for better working conditions, they won't be back and then we're left with folks that through no fault of their own, are doing jobs they are not qualified to do. It takes years to develop experience and education. A new contract is needed here and it seems the past and present councils are not willing to sit down with the firemen in good faith and work this out. They'd rather play games with lawsuits and back door politics. Here they've spent close a million bucks and for what? They know they can't win so why the stall tactic when all they have to do is sit down and work on a new contract. The Evergreen Clause is going to remain, count on it, and you can't blame the firemen for not giving it up considering our city councils previous history. So with all of the brain power here, why is the city stalling? What is to be gained?
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Old 09-16-2017, 04:33 PM
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Location: Ohio
16,809 posts, read 33,090,690 times
Reputation: 13582
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL View Post
So with all of the brain power here, why is the city stalling? What is to be gained?
Simple. The city is pressing forward with this because, for whatever reason, its legal team disagrees with this statement you made.

Quote:
The Evergreen Clause is going to remain, count on it
They know the union isn't going to back down and surrender the Evergreen clause. Everyone knows that. If they were banking on that, everyone knows they'd be wasting money. So the city must be convinced they still have a path to victory, from a legal standpoint. They're just keeping that strategy under wraps until they get to court.
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Old 09-16-2017, 05:01 PM
 
2,721 posts, read 3,402,584 times
Reputation: 1536
Default Unfortunate,

Surely it is an upside down world in wage levels where as my freshman sociology instructor pointed out....
and I have never forgotten.
The thrower of footballs he said ,- on Sunday Televised football games earns more than Dr.'s or Cops.
Many times more. Yet having the ability and skill to throw footballs accurately is useless to society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasRedneck View Post
LEO's "enjoy" a high divorce and suicide rate, and can be sued penniless by any citizen with a beef - and as has been shown time and again (thanks to camera systems), the accusations are often groundless. I have NO issue with a rogue cop being sued - but all too often, the false accusations made against LEO's aren't punished.

I have a son that's an LEO. He's currently sitting on 400 hours of "comp time" (which is max), because they don't have the budget to pay him OT. He's got 384 hrs of vacation time due him (which is max), because they don't have the budget to hire more officers so he can actually USE his vacation time. He's also accrued over 300 hrs of sick time - and often goes in even though he's sick, because they're short-staffed. Tell me what other job can say "sorry, we can't pay you for your OT". He continues to do his job because he cares about the citizens he's sworn to protect, just as many other officers and firefighters do. When the guy doped out of his mind is in the middle of the street, swinging the machete and threatening to impale that little girl, it's men and women like him that will give up their own lives to save hers.

And according to this study, Texas nonfatal injury rates in 2015 were led by Police....

https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/osh/os/pr156tx.pdf
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