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The answer to the OP and what I posted above is simple: Living Wage SA!
Make and vote for legislation: starting wages for all local full time jobs would be a living wage (bare minimum to survive without a form of assistance), with the ability to move up in pay with education, experience and effort.
The current SA minimum wage ($7.25) is well below a living wage for SA. People working full time making this per hour or a few dollars more per hour is a poverty wage and well below the bare minimum to survive without assistance. New legislation is needed to get local pay for everyone working a full time job to a living wage at a bare minimum.
I know, people in the US don't like to hear that, but when I moved in to this country I was shocked when I discovered that good % of people, living in one of the richest and most advanced country in the world, made living by working (full time) for tips. No other developed country does that to their hard working citizens.
It felt so degrading to me, to see people doing honest, often hard work and being dependent on other people gratuity.
And gratuity became an oxymoron, because is not an option. Knowing that those people depend on it for living, everyone feels obligated to leave a decent tip and the nation dutifully flung itself into an indignity-fueled, class-baited, pseudo-intellectual Internet screaming match about the "rules" of tipping in America.(lots of threads about it on C-D)
Or people working long hours, often two jobs for minimum wage that felt very low to me, and most of them couldn't afford healthcare or to take few days off for vacation.
I guess, seeing all those rich folks on tv and their life standards just made lots of people desperate to try that glamorous life, even if for short time. Easy access to credit cards, payday and title loans did the rest.
Once some got the taste, it was just very hard to go back.
The rest, just like txbullsfan said - San Antonio being very affordable for many who used to spend much more for less somewhere else, created opportunities to live above the means.
I know people who don't lose their sleep over their debt.
There should be better financial education in HS.
My parents never taught me that stuff, for all I know, they didn't know at the time either.
It took me a long time to learn I was messing up and how I was messing up, and a much longer time to dig myself out.
I know, people in the US don't like to hear that, but when I moved in to this country I was shocked when I discovered that good % of people, living in one of the richest and most advanced country in the world, made living by working (full time) for tips. No other developed country does that to their hard working citizens.
It felt so degrading to me, to see people doing honest, often hard work and being dependent on other people gratuity.
And gratuity became an oxymoron, because is not an option. Knowing that those people depend on it for living, everyone feels obligated to leave a decent tip and the nation dutifully flung itself into an indignity-fueled, class-baited, pseudo-intellectual Internet screaming match about the "rules" of tipping in America.(lots of threads about it on C-D)
Or people working long hours, often two jobs for minimum wage that felt very low to me, and most of them couldn't afford healthcare or to take few days off for vacation.
I guess, seeing all those rich folks on tv and their life standards just made lots of people desperate to try that glamorous life, even if for short time. Easy access to credit cards, payday and title loans did the rest.
Once some got the taste, it was just very hard to go back.
The rest, just like txbullsfan said - San Antonio being very affordable for many who used to spend much more for less somewhere else, created opportunities to live above the means.
I know people who don't lose their sleep over their debt.
This is going to be a fairly long post as I am passionate about this subject and about helping the weak, helpless, or at the very least struggling and afflicted.
Elnina, you are right, this is not just a San Antonio problem but an national problem. While we don't have as much of an impact on things at a national level, fortunately for us, we can change things for the majority and for the better at a local level, for SA.
As you said, we are the " richest and most advanced country in the world, that has people who: "made living by working (full time) for tips". In your case (people only working for a few dollars an hour and relying on tips) and in cases of many companies paying people the minimum wage or just a few dollars more that is well below the bare minimum to survive (in SA's case $7.25 or a few dollars more per hour), some have convinced themselves that these people deserve it and should just try harder, insinuating that they are lazy. Again, all jobs are important and drive the economy. If these minimum wage workers, or those who worked for just a few dollars more (but still well below a living wage) just disappeared off the face of the planet, the stock market and economy would collapse. The CEOs and all other high paying jobs and pensions and jobs would collapse. Everyone remaining would be in financial ruin. Again, all jobs are important and drive the economy regardless of how much we dehumanize these human beings and the jobs they work.
To have such a predatory system in this country (and in effect SA) is really unethical to a large portion of people. Millions in fact. Not everyone can be the owner of a restaurant, electronics company, water softener company, or be upper levels of ownership/workers for (insert company here). If everyone chose just to be the CEO or to only work upper levels there would not be enough positions for everyone as the market and these positions would be over saturated and there would be too much competition. Also, if everyone chose to be the owner/CEO of a water softener company and everyone else was doing the same thing, no one would be there to make parts for them, sell those parts for them, deliver those parts for them, quality control those parts for them, gather the water from aquifers and storing it for the water softners, quality testing the water, install the pipes to get the water to the water softners, maintain the pipes, quality control the water, clean the toilets and building of those who sell those water softener, gather the water, make the pipes, maintain the pipes etc. The list goes on and on. This is only one example. There are millions of other examples. Literally.
Im not saying everyone should be paid the same based on things such as education, experience and effort. What I am saying is all jobs have value. All. No matter how much we demean and subhumanize the burger flipper, the janitor, the fruit picker, the garbage collector (insert any other job here). They are human beings. They are working a full time job. They are paying their taxes and into the system. They are staying out of trouble. They are productive members of society. They deserve at a bare minimum, the bare minimum to survive (living wage), not less.
To pay any working honest person, who is working a legal and ethical full time job below the bare minimum to survive (hoping they get tips, or they can somehow make it another way) is not only unfair, it is unethical and it is wrong. Fortunately, we as humans are smart enough to see how unethical this income inequality and subhuman classification is and we can change it. I personally am glad slavery went away. Now, the next milestone above slavery is getting people who are working a full time job all paid a living wage based on their geographic area as a starting point. The "status quo" would mean, continuing to prey on cheap labor and policies and companies that prey on them, while the income inequality gap continues to widen.
As you said ("...people working long hours, often two jobs for minimum wage that felt very low to me, and most of them couldn't afford healthcare or to take few days off for vacation."). Again, you are right. Many hard working full time workers can not keep the lights on, or the rent paid, or often eat on sub living wages unless they have some form of assistance. Insurance, another massively profitable, for profit subject, is an absolute fantasy for them and their families. Insurance is really for those financially secure enough who can financially contribute to a plan(s) for when disaster may strike. God forbid those who can not afford this if they or their family to break a bone or get sick. The choice between paying for insurance or eating, rent, electricity or another necessity is a no brainer.
As someone mentioned earlier, there are a ton of Payday loan places on every corner here. Why? Because these places and the system that is in place is predatory and there are a ton of people here in SA who can not afford basic living expenses from paycheck to paycheck. These people go into these places because they need to pay the light bill because they just paid rent. Or they just paid the light bill and rent but need to eat. Charging people insane interest rates (300% to 600% and higher) with penalties for paying back early and preying on the most vulnerable is despicable and wrong. Yet, its how are whole predatory system is set up. These street corner loan places are far from being the only predatory thing in this system. Some (usually those in power) are ok with this because their pockets are lined and they truly never had to know what its like to have to constantly make the decisions of choosing to eat, or pay the rent. These places exist and exist in abundance here is an indicator that we have a income problem here in SA for a large portion of people and we also have an unchecked predatory problem locally and across the country.
We, as a society refuse to pay millions of people a living wage. SA falls within this. So what do people who aren't paid the bare minimum to survive do? They go to these predatory loan places to get by, further increasing their debt, damaging their credit score and falling further down the cycle. They also go get on government assistance. All the while they get accused of all driving around in Mercedes with the latest gadgets and clothes (when in most cases this is untrue) and they get insulted for getting on government assistance, being called, lazy, stupid, leeches and system suckers among other things. Then, a good portion of people elect officials that reduce or remove these government programs. Programs that other countries with higher taxes enjoy paying and who are happier overall. So we refuse to pay people a living wage as a bare minimum, preying on low wage jobs and people and we complain about paying taxes and having programs that assist the millions in these jobs and eventually many vote to either reduce or remove these programs. How can these millions of people win? While there is always the exception to any rule, many of them can not. That is why things need to change. We can do this!
The answer is simple: Living Wage SA!
Make and vote for legislation: starting wages for all local full time jobs would be a living wage (bare minimum to survive without a form of assistance), with the ability to move up in pay with education, experience and effort.
Last edited by txbullsfan; 11-16-2018 at 12:43 PM..
Funny thing about working for tips. My wife was a bartender in Wichita to pay her way through college. Got a degree in mechanical engineering from Wichita State and passed her PE. Took a job with a major local oil exploration and drilling company. Super right? Took her three years to make as much as a degreed and licensed engineer as she did as a bartender.
Funny thing about working for tips. My wife was a bartender in Wichita to pay her way through college. Got a degree in mechanical engineering from Wichita State and passed her PE. Took a job with a major local oil exploration and drilling company. Super right? Took her three years to make as much as a degreed and licensed engineer as she did as a bartender.
Of course how much you make in tips will vary depending on where you work.
And how good you are at your job. That's the fallacy of the "living wage" argument. Show me someone willing to learn and work, and I'll show you someone that CAN get ahead. Those willing to flip burgers should understand that it's a ENTRY level job - NOT a career. I've seen folks that COULD have done VERY well for themselves be satisfied with working behind the counter at Subway. In fact, I know of one of their employees that turned down a promotion because they "didn't want the responsibility". You earn more when you're WORTH more to an employer - not just because you suck air.
Sorry if that's blunt, but it is what it is. And I know a number of folks working the food industry that LOVE working for tips, even with the occasional jerk or two that'll stiff 'em on their tips - all in all, they make a VERY good living if they're even reasonably good at their jobs.
There is no fallacy of the living wage argument. There is nothing unsound or mistaken about it. Every full time job is important to the economy. Every worker is a human being. No one working a full time job should be paid less then the bare minimum to survive without assistance. This might have been an acceptable mindset when slavery was acceptable but it is a shame that it is still the mindset of some people. Fortunately, this mindset is changing across the nation.
Many people working minimum wage jobs and just a few dollars more are just as hard of workers and just as responsible as those who run a kitchen, install water softeners, run a network or decide to do something else. In many cases, more so. To assume otherwise is inaccurate at best, and dishonest at worst.
Many people working minimum wage jobs and just a few dollars more are just as hard of workers and just as responsible as those who run a kitchen, install water softeners, run a network or decide to do something else. In many cases, more so. To assume otherwise is inaccurate at best, and dishonest at worst.
This is where the disconnect is - a doctor well earns their money, especially given the many years of education. A software engineer designs a product for a business to use to generate more income/business, which therefore pays HIS wages. If you're making a $3 part for me every 15 minutes, how can I justify paying you $15/hour? Or, if you're a service tech for my company that clears one service call an hour vs another that clears the same calls in 30 or 45 minutes, why do you "deserve" the same pay?
Most folks have never run a company, so they don't understand all the costs associated with doing so - everything from Workman's Comp to insurance, Social Security payments to benefits.
That service truck you see going down the road? You're looking at an easy $50k just for the vehicle - forget the tools that are in it. And when that driver has a wreck, the driver isn't sued - the company is. That's a LOT of risk to be assumed.
That's why I always stress to those I have worked with and/or mentored - become an asset to the company you work for. If you aren't, then find one that WILL value you. It IS a two-way street - but it's not the company's job to make you valuable - it's yours. Having said that, I ALWAYS taught any tech everything I knew without reserve - part of MY legacy is going to be measured by those I leave behind. Some took advantage of it, and have gone far. Others didn't want the hassle (one even told me that trying to "learn all that stuff" was too hard) - they're the burger flippers of the world. Why is it a company's problem? Are there company's out there that aren't worth working for? Sure there are - they are the "feeders" for the company's that DO take care of their employees. I used to talk to guys working in the various gas stations/fast food places that seemed to have some "snap" to them, and if I found one that looked like he had some drive to him, I'd offer them a job interview. But - it was up to THEM to show ME that they would be an asset to the company.
This is where the disconnect is - a doctor well earns their money, especially given the many years of education. A software engineer designs a product for a business to use to generate more income/business, which therefore pays HIS wages. If you're making a $3 part for me every 15 minutes, how can I justify paying you $15/hour? Or, if you're a service tech for my company that clears one service call an hour vs another that clears the same calls in 30 or 45 minutes, why do you "deserve" the same pay?
Most folks have never run a company, so they don't understand all the costs associated with doing so - everything from Workman's Comp to insurance, Social Security payments to benefits.
That service truck you see going down the road? You're looking at an easy $50k just for the vehicle - forget the tools that are in it. And when that driver has a wreck, the driver isn't sued - the company is. That's a LOT of risk to be assumed.
That's why I always stress to those I have worked with and/or mentored - become an asset to the company you work for. If you aren't, then find one that WILL value you. It IS a two-way street - but it's not the company's job to make you valuable - it's yours. Having said that, I ALWAYS taught any tech everything I knew without reserve - part of MY legacy is going to be measured by those I leave behind. Some took advantage of it, and have gone far. Others didn't want the hassle (one even told me that trying to "learn all that stuff" was too hard) - they're the burger flippers of the world. Why is it a company's problem? Are there company's out there that aren't worth working for? Sure there are - they are the "feeders" for the company's that DO take care of their employees. I used to talk to guys working in the various gas stations/fast food places that seemed to have some "snap" to them, and if I found one that looked like he had some drive to him, I'd offer them a job interview. But - it was up to THEM to show ME that they would be an asset to the company.
Based on your post and from the multiple comments I hear and read on this forum, other forums and in person over the years, there are some misconceptions and a general disconnect in what some think the living wage argument is. Some believe it is $15 across the board for everyone. Some believe it is socialism where everyone is paid the same wage. Both of theses are incorrect. The $15 national minimum wage movement is separate from the living wage movement. True socialism is separate from the living wage movement.
The living wage argument is making the point that a living wage (bare minimum to survive) is fluid, dynamic and dependent on geographic location. Because a true living wage is largely dependent on local cost of living, a $15 per hour across the board national minimum wage would be a terrible idea. Buford Wyoming's (or other rural areas) cost of living is much less and the locals getting $15 per hour would create tremendous inflation and drive many business out of business among other things. $15 per hour in places like San Fransisco would be well below the bare minimum to survive so it would be terrible for them. Both Buford Wyoming, San Fransisco and San Antonio (every place) has its own true living wage based on the local economy and other local factors.
One of the other misconceptions about a "living wage" is that people for this are advocating for socialism where everyone is paid the same. That the doctor should be paid the same as the firefighter, or the IT person as much as the restaurant worker. This is untrue. Someone advocating for a living wage is not saying everyone should make the same based on factors such as education, experience and hard work.
What someone who is advocating for a living wage as the starting point is saying is:
Starting wages for all local full time jobs should be a living wage (bare minimum to survive without a form of assistance), with the ability to move up in pay with education, experience and effort.
Also,
All jobs have value and are valuable to the economy. All. They deserve at a bare minimum, the bare minimum to survive (living wage) based on the local geographic location, not less.
Some other misconceptions about minimum wage workers (or those working just a few dollars above):
No, all minimum wage workers are not lazy. Many are hard workers working two full time jobs to pay bills
No, all minimum wage workers are not irresponsible. Many keep their job(s) by showing up to work on time and working hard each and every day.
No, all minimum wage workers are not irresponsible with their money and are not driving around in Bently's, Mercedes or always buying the most expensive phones, clothes and gadgets.
We can continue to use the "tribe mentality" and attempt to dehumanize and devalue the minimum wage workers at worst (see above), or devalue their jobs and the jobs impact on economy and society at best, labeling them and categorizing them, saying things like they are lazy, unmotivated, irresponsible (insert another excuse here) and that because of these things they deserve less then the bare minimum to survive but the fact remains is these are across the board labels and they are mostly inaccurate, just as across the board labels are with most other things such as race, color, religious creed, national origin, ancestry, sex, sexual orientation, age, genetic information, military service, or disability.
Yes, my experience in this field comes from multiple areas. I am a business owner and I know the costs of running a business. Yes, I also work a secular job, and while I get paid a bit more then minimum wage, I see the work ethic of those in a minimum wage (or slightly above) jobs. Yes, I have years of experience working with the homeless or people at risk of becoming homeless. I know the misconceptions about them, their responsibility and their work ethic. I know their plight.
Income inequality among groups of people is increasing in this country. All jobs have value and are valuable to the economy. All. They are also human beings, who are productive members of society, working hard and staying out of trouble. Everyone working a full time job deserve at a bare minimum, the bare minimum to survive (living wage) based on the local geographic location, NOT LESS.
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