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Old 07-03-2008, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Durham, NC
1,232 posts, read 3,770,765 times
Reputation: 604

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rd2007 View Post
I'll never understand why people stick up for the thugs, criminals, rapists, murderers, thieves etc.
I do not know what the "Michael Moore" syndrome is all about (no criticism, mind you), but the only thing I can think of when rational people stick up for criminals and related activity is their concern that advocating any method, solution or law that may infringe on a criminal's rights may inadvertently, and innocently, infringe upon their own rights. Those rational people do not necessarily put themselves in the shoes of the criminal, they simply stay in their own shoes and wonder how those same methods, solutions or laws, designed to oppress criminal behavior, will oppress them. If for a moment a method, solution or law could even remotely affect them, it becomes an infringement upon that rational person's rights. And thus, they object to the method, solution or law while at the same time, fighting to oppress that method, solution or law that could actually 'help' all of us prevent crime or keep criminals off the street. And by objecting, they inadvertently appear to side with the criminal when, in reality, their concern is for both their own livelihood (i.e. rights, quality of life, freedoms, etc.) and the livelihood of other law abiding citizens.

Certainly, it's far more complicated than that nutshell explanation. But in some ways, the explanation is very simple to understand. No ONE rational law abiding citizen would ever condone or side with criminal activity! This would not make sense to any rational person.

However, what frustrates me is that while we try to advocate the rights and defense of law abiding citizens by creating an, arguably, more proactive defensive solution and law, those in opposition of this solution and law often offer criticism without offering an effective alternative solution that could put us all at peace (or provide a reasonable stepping stone on what they consider offensive). This, without acknowledging or understanding the intent and methods of the criminal mind. A mind that obviously has no concern for the rights, property and well being of their victims.
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:00 PM
 
115 posts, read 278,085 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by rd2007 View Post
I'll never understand why people stick up for the thugs, criminals, rapists, murderers, thieves etc.
For some reason they suffer from the michael moore syndrome, which is where they hate themselves for being successful.. it's an awful disease and I wish there was an immunization for it. There technically is, but that's for a whole 'nother thread..
That's exactly what you are doing, sticking up for a double murderer.
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Wiesbaden, Germany
13,815 posts, read 29,273,279 times
Reputation: 4025
really? show me the conviction..

BTW, there's plenty of gang bangers around here that would love to be your friend. Just walk up to them and make a couple of childish hand gestures. That's a special code to get them to talk to you and go out for ice cream..
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:16 PM
 
115 posts, read 278,085 times
Reputation: 63
[quote=majormadmax;4325802]He did, he saved his own life. And a person does not need to be armed to commit an assault. I could easily beat you to death using only my hands, would you realistically just stand there and do nothing about it? I don't think so.

I like how you keep acting like the two criminals were innocently doing nothing but neglecting the fact that 1) they were committing felony burglary at the time and 2) they threatened and ran towards Mr Horn when he confronted them from his own property!

I guess he was suppose to just stand there and let the chance of them committing battery (they already committed an assault by threatening him, and felony burglary in the neighbor's house) against him happen before taking any action.

I hope you find yourself in a similar situation one day, it would be interesting to see how you conduct yourself![/QUO
If he was going to take the law into his own hands and not follow directions, then why did he even call 911. These guys were not out to hurt anyone, if they were then they would have been armed. If you listened to the tape you can get an idea that he really wanted to do what he did, kill two people for stealing material things. What's really crazy is that if he was a cop, he would lose his job and go to jail for shooting unarmed men in the back while they were running away. He is a double murderer and should be in jail.
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:34 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
8,399 posts, read 22,890,638 times
Reputation: 4435
Don't give up, do ya?

He called 911 believing that the police would respond in a timely manner and apprehend the criminals. When the police didn't do that, and the criminals were fleeing the scene, he acted within the law and engaged them himself. They attacked him (as witnessed by the one painclothes officer that was at the scene but did not arrest the criminals) and he defended himself.

And a Grand Jury investigation happens for every shooting, to include police officers. It did not matter that Horn was a civilian, an officer would have been cleared through the same judicial process. Explain why you think a police officer would have received a different verdict? Police officers legally shoot fleeing felons all the time.

Prepare yourself, I am sure you are going to be shocked by this but there is nothing that says a citizen cannot "take the law into their hands!" As a matter of fact, in some instances you are required to lend assistance. As a CHL holder, I am authorized to legally intervene using lethal force in numerous instances, to include stopping the theft of property.

Go do some research on the laws of Texas, as you have yet to quote any of them in support of your argument. You can have all the opinions you want, but you aren't going to convince anyone without solid facts. And I do mean all the facts. You seem to forget that the criminals were on Horn's property and attacking him when he shot them. But I guess since they didn't have any apparant weapons on them, you still believe they should have been asked nicely to put everything back and leave, never to steal again. Are you really that clueless? Do you know the background of the two criminals that were killed? They were scum, and would continue to rob innocent people had they not come up against one proud Texan would wasn't going to let it happen in his neighborhood. You may not think Horn was right in what he did, but a majority of Texans, to include those who sat on the Grand Jury, do.

So do I, and I will make it simple for you. Anyone who breaks into my house or threatens me or my family, or even my neighbors, and I am going to engage them with lethal force. I don't care if they are dressed like the Pilsbury Dough Boy, if they want to break the law in my neighborhood they had been be prepared to risk their lives in doing so, because that is exactly what they will be doing. And you know what, I won't lose a minute's sleep over it.
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:37 PM
 
259 posts, read 907,146 times
Reputation: 133
The self-defense angle is pretty weak, especially when the 2 men were shot while they were running away. The 911 transcript makes it very clear that Horn's intention was to confront them, not defend himself.

In his 911 call, Horn cited a newly enacted Texas law, the "castle doctrine," which authorizes the use of deadly force during a home invasion.

But Sen. Jeff Wentworth, who wrote the law, said it did not apply to Horn's case.

"It was not an issue in this case other than him saying incorrectly that he understood it to mean he could protect his neighbor's property," said Wentworth, R-San Antonio.

He said the castle doctrine simply didn't apply because, although the burglars were running across Horn's lawn, Horn's home wasn't under siege — his neighbor's home was.

"It comes from the saying 'A man's home is his castle,' " Wentworth said. "But this wasn't his castle."

911 Transcript

Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.
Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.
Horn: I’m doing this.
Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.
Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.
Horn: You want to make a bet?
Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.
Horn: They’re getting away!
Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?
Horn: [curses]
Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.
Horn: They got a bag of loot.
Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?
Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.
Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.
Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired]
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:49 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
348 posts, read 1,218,454 times
Reputation: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister View Post
The self-defense angle is pretty weak, especially when the 2 men were shot while they were running away. The 911 transcript makes it very clear that Horn's intention was to confront them, not defend himself.

In his 911 call, Horn cited a newly enacted Texas law, the "castle doctrine," which authorizes the use of deadly force during a home invasion.

But Sen. Jeff Wentworth, who wrote the law, said it did not apply to Horn's case.

"It was not an issue in this case other than him saying incorrectly that he understood it to mean he could protect his neighbor's property," said Wentworth, R-San Antonio.

He said the castle doctrine simply didn't apply because, although the burglars were running across Horn's lawn, Horn's home wasn't under siege — his neighbor's home was.

"It comes from the saying 'A man's home is his castle,' " Wentworth said. "But this wasn't his castle."

911 Transcript

Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.
Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.
Horn: I’m doing this.
Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.
Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.
Horn: You want to make a bet?
Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.
Horn: They’re getting away!
Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?
Horn: [curses]
Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.
Horn: They got a bag of loot.
Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?
Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.
Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.
Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired]

Mister and Big A, I hope we are NEVER neighbors!

Last edited by GoTexan; 07-03-2008 at 08:53 PM.. Reason: added another poster after reading through the posts
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Old 07-03-2008, 09:01 PM
 
115 posts, read 278,085 times
Reputation: 63
Thanks Mister. Look people I'm all for the protection of my family and anybody else for that matter, but this just isn't that kind of a case. Mr. Horn was very fortunate that these were petty thieves who weren't out to harm anybody. The sad thing is that if he had been the one killed, some of you same people in this forum would be calling him a fool for risking his life over a bag of whatever. Not worth it no matter how you look at it.
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Old 07-03-2008, 09:09 PM
 
259 posts, read 907,146 times
Reputation: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoTexan View Post
Mister and Big A, I hope we are NEVER neighbors!
I'm the best neighbor a person can have. Trust me, if some scumbag is inside my house I'm going to unload a magazine or two. If I see him threatening you (or anyone else) he's gonna eat pavement or eat lead. But I'm not going to shoot 2 fleeing burglars in the back just because they have a bag of your silverware in their hands.

My kids used to lock themselves out of the house and break in through the back window and I'd hate to think you'd shoot them if you saw them in the act. Cops are trained to use good judgment before they shoot. Mr. Horn didn't and has since said he was sorry that it happened and that he doesn't at all feel like a hero. It's disappointing to see so many armchair quarterbacks tagging him with that title. He's (probably) a nice guy who got caught up in the heat of the moment and made a bad decision that he regrets and luckily for him a jury decided that he didn't deserve to go to jail.

Horn made up his mind that he was going to shoot them before he ever left his house and he said so to the dispatcher. I don't think Horn deserves to go to jail and I wouldn't call him a murderer, but I certainly would hate to think that Texans will feel empowered to confront any perceived crime with deadly force.
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Old 07-03-2008, 09:11 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
8,399 posts, read 22,890,638 times
Reputation: 4435
What happend during the 911 call and what happened after he went outside are two completely different situations. Plus, the person that drafts a law doesn't get to be the ultimate authority on it, nor does the 011 operator have any legal ability to tell someone they cannot legally intervene in stopping a felony, as Texas law allows them to do so. So all of your supporting arguments are invalid.

Go read Texas law on defending property, it has been cited on here to make it easy for you. And even if you don't bother, the finding of the Grand Jury is absolute proof that Horn was well within his rights under Texas law! You can argue against that until you are blue in the face, but you aren't going to convince anyone as the Grand Jury made its decision and I can assure you that they were well versed in that laws that applied.

Maybe it was all those years serving in the military, but I won't stand around and witness someone being the victim of a felony without intervening if I have the means to.

If these two were smart, they should have surrendered when confronted. No, they decided the attack the person that was trying to stop them from conducting their crime. It was a bad decision on their part and their stupidity cost them their lives.

I only thank God that the vast majority of Texans do not share the attitudes of Big A and Mister. People here believe in looking out for each other, and not tolerating crime. It is an attitude that makes this state great. If I wanted to live someplace where the criminals received more protection than law-abiding citizens, I would move to California. Maybe some of you should...
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