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Old 09-09-2008, 12:30 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
1,454 posts, read 1,640,052 times
Reputation: 1947

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While I understand your position M2, I think it's a dangerous one. Not everyone is an "expert marksman" and would be endangering members of the public (kids included) if they attempted to stop a criminal with lethal force. Even disabling a vehicle at a distance (shooting out tires, for example) can be very difficult.

--Dim
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:49 PM
Status: "Have gun, will travel!" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
8,369 posts, read 13,305,244 times
Reputation: 4406
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dimwit View Post
While I understand your position M2, I think it's a dangerous one. Not everyone is an "expert marksman" and would be endangering members of the public (kids included) if they attempted to stop a criminal with lethal force. Even disabling a vehicle at a distance (shooting out tires, for example) can be very difficult.

--Dim
Anyone who carries a lethal weapon had better be well-trained in its use. And no one should operate outside of their abilities; but in the case of a child kidnapping, I would rather someone try to intervene than allow such a horrid act to occur.

I will not be the person telling a parent that I let their child be kidnapped because I was afraid of taking action. Yes, there is risk involved; but given the situation I think most people would rather have someone take that risk then to leave matters in the hands of the abductor. Most times than not, the results of the latter are not pleasant...

Back to the topic, to the OP, did you consider contacting the local media about this? The more incidents like this make the news, the more people will be on the lookout for such predators and the more likely those same predators will fear getting caught. I am not trying to make people paranoid, just aware...

Cheers! M2
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:53 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
1,454 posts, read 1,640,052 times
Reputation: 1947
M2,

Again, I understand your point. Of course, if you miss and kill the kid instead of the kidnapper then I guess I'd understand because you were "taking action." And I think it's ludicrous to believe that simply because someone is trained on the use of a weapon automatically means they can fire said weapon in circumstances such as this.

What if the kid is taken in a busy shopping center and the armed individual has to fire into a crowd? Would you chalk it up to "action" if innocent bystanders were hit and/or killed? I'm not flaming, just really curious about the "reach for the gun first" attitude.

--Dim
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:01 PM
 
4,794 posts, read 10,163,358 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by majormadmax View Post
Anyone who carries a lethal weapon had better be well-trained in its use. And no one should operate outside of their abilities; but in the case of a child kidnapping, I would rather someone try to intervene than allow such a horrid act to occur.

M2
I agree with the first part of your statement. But I would NOT prefer my child to be DEAD because some incompetent vigilante decided in a split second to be a hero. You're speaking with blinders on....about YOU. Bravo! God forbid someone "think" they are an experienced marksman when they are NOT. There are a lot of those kind of bozos out there too.

M2....I appreciate your assertive attitude toward protecting your home, family property and country. I'm not against guns or owning them. But you come across a little gun happy to me. While you may have tons of experience and expertise, your statements are in a way encouraging people to be like you that don't have a clue to how to operate or fire a weapon. It's rather unsettling to hear you use that as your answer to every annoyance or danger out there.

Protection means proactive and watchful parents.....not when they are already in harms way.
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:22 PM
Status: "Have gun, will travel!" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
8,369 posts, read 13,305,244 times
Reputation: 4406
First and foremost, there are plenty of legally-armed citizens in this state that have training and experience equal to or even greater than the majority of police officers. The chances are not any greater than someone else will be accidentally shot just because it isn't a police officer doing the shooting.

Secondly, if you read my posts more carefully you will note that I said "Anyone who carries a lethal weapon had better be well-trained in its use" and "no one should operate outside of their abilities." How that can be interpreted as "encouraging people to be like you that don't have a clue to how to operate or fire a weapon" is beyond me. What it should do is encourage those who have an interest in defending themselves to go out and get the training and experience necessary to do so properly. Did I say to go out and get your five-year-old guns? No. Do I see guns as a legitmate means of self-defense? Yes. Unless someone out there can prove to me there is a better/more effective means to protect myself, my family and my property, I will stick to my guns (pun intended).

Lastly, your child may already be dead if an abductor is successful in taking him or her. And it may not be a pretty situation. There are risks either way, but if you would rather take your chances with the abductor or the burgler breaking into your house in the middle of the night, I hope it all works out for you. I, on the other hand, would rather take control of the situation.

The world is full of sheep, wolves and sheepdogs...just be glad there are a few sheepdogs out there!

Cheers! M2
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:28 PM
 
4,794 posts, read 10,163,358 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
The U.S. Department of Justice profile of the typical pedophile says that most pedophiles are non-violent and they will go to great lengths to entice victims in the least risky way. You can Google it to read more.

I don't have any further interest in talking about pedophiles. I just didn't want to leave it out there that children are in great danger from pedophiles breaking into our homes - they aren't.
I'm not sure why the topic of "pedophiles" is of course here. The OP's child was in a very dangerous situation right in front of her home. What other "type" of criminal would try to entice a child into their car? I honestly don't care what the DOJ defines as "violent". To me....touching my child or any child inappropriately or against their will is "crimanal" in the worst way! It really is irrelevant whether it's a break in or pick up....it is ultimately a kidnapping and worse. Uncle Ernie is just as bad luring kids to the attic to view his "train set". Violating a child in anyway is "violence" in my book.
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:36 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
2,398 posts, read 4,354,486 times
Reputation: 621
Quote:
Originally Posted by majormadmax View Post
First and foremost, there are plenty of legally-armed citizens in this state that have training and experience equal to or even greater than the majority of police officers. The chances are not any greater than someone else will be accidentally shot just because it isn't a police officer doing the shooting.
And there are many more who don't. This is where the greater chance of someone getting accidently shot comes in.

Quote:
Secondly, if you read my posts more carefully you will note that I said "Anyone who carries a lethal weapon had better be well-trained in its use" and "no one should operate outside of their abilities." How that can be interpreted as "encouraging people to be like you that don't have a clue to how to operate or fire a weapon" is beyond me.
Why? Just because you say so? While it's true that people who own guns should be legally in possession and have proper training, this isn't always the case. Just because you say something doesn't make it happen!

Quote:
The world is full of sheep, wolves and sheepdogs...just be glad there are a few sheepdogs out there!
I'm with you, only if the sheepdogs are licensed and well-trained!

Quote:
Cheers! M2
OT question...I count 3 m's in major mad max. Why do you only use 2? Just curious!
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:40 PM
 
4,794 posts, read 10,163,358 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by majormadmax View Post

...... if you read my posts more carefully you will note that I said "Anyone who carries a lethal weapon had better be well-trained in its use" and "no one should operate outside of their abilities." How that can be interpreted as "encouraging people to be like you that don't have a clue to how to operate or fire a weapon" is beyond me. M2
M...if you read my post more carefully, you might see that I'm referring to some people who "might" feel as equally as confident as you are, WHEN THEY ARE NOT! Do you see the diff? It's in THEIR head that they might be able to handle it or even have sufficient training. How long do you think it actually took you to get to the expertise of handling various weapons? My guess it's shorter than the average "bear". Plus your background required it! You are giving a LOT of credit to some idiots out there that think they are experienced. I don't want them or even you shooting anything in the vicinity of my family.

You are correct that a child might be dead if they are successful in being kidnapped.....but you are totally ignoring the point the OP intended. That being "DON'T LET IT GET THAT FAR".....then we won't need so many "sheepdogs".
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Old 09-09-2008, 04:45 PM
 
141 posts, read 331,341 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by majormadmax View Post
I've got 14 rounds of 185 grain Federal Hi-Shok JHP .45ACP ammo with me; so they may out run me, but unless they are faster than 874 fps, they aren't going to outrun them!

And I am not kidding here. There are loads of kids that play on our street (ours included), and if I ever witnessed an attempt to kidnap any of them, I will intervene! Texas law allows a legally-armed citizen to "use deadly force to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery" (PC 99.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON), and you can bet your last dollar that I am prepared and will do so if necessary!

I'm not trying to sound tough or scare anyone, but we as a community must bond together to stop acts such as this. The police can only be in so many places at the same time, it is also our civic duty to look after each other and especially kids!

I am glad to hear you reported this to the police. Hopefully they will catch this scum and prevent him from trying to do the same to someone else's child.

Cheers! M2
well i for one applaud your encouragement of vigilance with regard to child safety, M2. and i don't find any encouragement of half-cocked (pun intended) armchair marksmen firing wildly. but it is so sad that these days, there is an overall loss of the meaning of "community". in general, if we all learn to help each other especially when it comes to children and their safety, we would all be better off. but then again, we are in a time when people turn a blind eye to elderly women being beaten in broad daylight, while being videotaped.

thank God the OP's child was safe and kudos to them for acting as quick as they did. that kind of vigilence is always invaluable. reading the OP's story, i remember as a kid hearing about Adam Walsh, and was horrified upon hearing about his horrible death. but it made an impression on me. i didn't go ANYWHERE without my mom being within 5 to 10 feet of me. but at that time there were also great programs at school and in the public about children always knowing how to react to a stranger and even their address, phone number and parent's names. and somehow we need to stress these kinds of safety issues to the next generation of kids.

okay, i'm off my soapbox, anyone need to do some laundry?
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Texas
36 posts, read 63,107 times
Reputation: 28
My sister in law works at a department store and just recently there was a incident, A mother was looking through a clothing rack and her little boy was standing right next to her, across from the little boy was a sicko staring at the little boy and masturbating. It was all caught on the security camera, security came down but by the time they got to the mom and boy the sicko was gone. The poor mom didn't even know, and they didn't catch the man. I don't think children are safe anywhere, and it's up to us as parents to be aware of our surroundings at all times. Even in our own front yards. My mom is on my case all the time saying I'm too overprotective with my kids, Yes I am and with good reason. She gets upset because when we go to Walmart I won't let my kids go to the toy section alone while I shop. There's too many weirdos out there. I just spoke to my kids after reading this thread and reminded them not to talk to strangers and not to approach a vehicle if someone stops to talk to them, keep walking, run whatever it takes. Thanks again for posting this. It reminds me to not let my guard down.
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