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ONE post. The other post was already sunk on the fenceline that ran next to the house. This was the section between the fence and the house, connecting the fence to the house. The builder fenced our yard before the neighbors. We were just anchoring it to their post. Really "Our" post since the fence is shared, but you know what I mean.
1 post.
I didn't mean to hijack this thread... I just thought it was a good example of why people turn to the "cheapest" alternative sometimes.
The original estimates, all for one post? Unbelievable! BTW it'll probably last - with an existing post anchoring everything while the concrete finishes setting there shouldn't be too much twisting force pulling the 'new' post one way or the other.
From what I've experienced you're more likely to get good and inexpensive when you call up a local company for something rather than a chain. It was that way with the home inspection, and now with the leaded glass in the front door that I need to have replaced.
I understand paying for labor. What, maybe an hour to dig the post. Then let the concrete set... are you going to watch it set? No, come back the next day or whatever and attach everything. What, another hour?
How far does the contractor live from you? His driving time may not apply to you, but the gas and windshield time is something he has to account for. A pool service or cable guy would charge you $75 per trip plus $50 per hour.
So by your own description, $250 would be their labor bill - if it only took the two hours you are describing. This would be plus materials. $300-$350 would be my estimate.
I need to add here that obviously pricing is going to be affected by convenience for the contractor. The guy that was hired for the post was already there. I would have taken a $75 trip charge off for this. If the home owner didn't want me to wait to set the post (which I would have advised as improper) then that'd be another $75 off for not having to come back, but I would have dropped my warranty on that installation.
Where I am going with this is that you do get discounts for convenience, but after that you start edging into quality and care. I will turn people down when their price goals force me below a certain level of quality, but I'm not going to work for free - so if the price is going down, it's 50/50 that we are negotiating an easier, hastier process. I do everything I can to inform my customers of the effects of downgrading, but not all contractors have that courtesy - especially the hungry ones that are hurting for work.
I can't really answer the poll question... it's a loaded question. Everyone wants good work, that's obvious. If I click cheap then you're assuming I care nothing about quality, which isn't true either.
It's really about what you can afford. If dmarie123 spend $50 and it lasts 3 or 4 years, who's to say that wasn't good? In 3 or 4 years she may move or she may decide to put up a different style of fence, who knows.
There are some things you spend money on and there are other things you can get by with going cheap. Nothing fits into either category cleanly.
Since I can't click good nor can I click cheap. Can I click them both??
Very good points.
being married to a Swiss, who by their nature believe in only things which last a lifetime, not quantity (I think it's in their genes), we tend towards quality (and don't shop at places like Walmart). For most home issues, we'd go with quality. Hence, our metal roof meant to last 100 yrs (last one lasted ~110 yrs, should have been replaced 10 yrs ago...) But there are some things that are meant to be temporary until we're in a position to make them permanent, so yes, for those things, we'd go cheap.
I don't think that cheap always = not good. You insinuate that there aren't companies out there trying to broaden their profit margin (there are), and that customers shouldn't compare prices and service (they should). Everyone is trying to get the best deal possible, and that sometimes requires a little risk taking.
The same rules apply for auto repairs or any other service industry, you research and find someone that does the level of work at the cost that are to your satisfaction.
And yes, I do believe that the $50 job can be just as good, if not better, than the $500 one...that is an opinion based on a lot of experience.
And yes, I do believe that the $50 job can be just as good, if not better, than the $500 one...that is an opinion based on a lot of experience.
Unfortunately, the $50 job that was done is quite literally inferior according to how the customer described it having been done, which sinks your statement completely. Could you cite some examples of your abundance of experience where being cheap has brought in higher quality work than paying a fair price?
Your statement seems more like a stubborn dug-in tendency to hold to keeping costs at a minimum.
Efficiency and cost effectiveness is not what I am arguing here. I am saying that an average contractor who is charging a fair market price for what he is doing (which I believe would be in the $50/hr range for a skilled laborer) will do a better job than a migrant worker (etc) who is skimping on materials or labor processes (or who doesn't know the proper techniques) in order to save you money.
Last edited by Reallybigshoe; 05-29-2009 at 08:53 PM..
My point of view is coming from someone who knows that to do things right, you first have to cover your costs (gas, quality materials, bills) and also must be making a profit to stay in business. In my experience with the hundreds of 'contractors' I've dealt with in San Antonio, the ones who are cheap are the guys who have not been in business long, do inferior work, and will not be in business long. They get a lot of work but can never catch up with their bills, skimp on materials and quality technique, and certainly cannot afford to honor any verbal or written warranties.
I agree that there is a time and place to find a cheap quick fix, but that when you are doing work on your home that is intended to be permanent, and is intended to affect the value and enjoyment of your property - why risk spending money that you will just have to spend again when the inferiority of the cheap guy begins to show up?
I will cite one more time the current issue with KB homes. If the lawsuits don't go through, or if KB just declares bankruptcy, it's the homeowners that are going to be paying for those lawyer fees and repairs. The only apparent outside difference between KB and other home builders in the area is the lower price tag. People continue to fall for the cheapening that is evident in everyday American culture. Why the hell else would anyone eat the garbage on a dollar menu?
Unfortunately, the $50 job that was done is quite literally inferior according to how the customer described it having been done, which sinks your statement completely. Could you cite some examples of your abundance of experience where being cheap has brought in higher quality work than paying a fair price?
Your statement seems more like a stubborn dug-in tendency to hold to keeping costs at a minimum.
Efficiency and cost effectiveness is not what I am arguing here. I am saying that an average contractor who is charging a fair market price for what he is doing (which I believe would be in the $50/hr range for a skilled laborer) will do a better job than a migrant worker (etc) who is skimping on materials or labor processes (or who doesn't know the proper techniques) in order to save you money.
Quite easily, my wife recently got into a minor fender bender in a parking lot, with minimal cosmetic damage to our minivan. She took it around and got three different estimates all from reputable body shops, and they ranged from $350-550. Now tell me why the difference is nearly double? I found the same when I got estimates to have some work done on my house. It is not uncommon and I am not the only one experiencing it.
And I would counter that you are trying to discourage people from using your competition, which is close to advertising which as you know is against the Terms of Service for this forum. Based on your logic, I should only take my car to a dealership for repairs as a locally owned shop that would be cheaper is not going to match the dealership's quality of service. Well, I will tell you I have been less than impressed with many higher-end service providers, one example was the company that installed the wooden floors in our house. They were far from the cheapest, but they claimed to provide the best professional installation around and we ended up having to battle with them to get them to finish the job they way it was promised. Not only did they take twice as long as the estimated (and there was no reason for it other than their own ineptness to complete the job), but several aspects of it had to be redone to finally achieve the expected result.
As a matter of fact, I have found that many of the "higher end" contractors around here simply hire "subcontractors" who are no better than some of the independents contractors who are much cheaper. You don't always get what you pay for, and your advocating that by paying more you always get more couldn't be farther from the truth!
Efficiency and cost effectiveness is not what I am arguing here. I am saying that an average contractor who is charging a fair market price for what he is doing (which I believe would be in the $50/hr range for a skilled laborer) will do a better job that a migrant worker (etc) who is skimping on materials or labor processes (or who doesn't know the proper techniques) in order to save you money.
I don't think anyone is arguing with that statement at all. The problem always is determining fair market value. Fair market value to you, the builder, means something different than it does to me, the consumer. You know all of your costs, you know your competitors bids, you've been doing this for years, I assume. You know more about what it takes to do it right than I do -- so explain that to me.
In the situation we've been talking about.. I might see a guy who comes in, digs a hole, pours concrete in it, stands around or goes to lunch for a couple hours (on the clock, of course), hangs the pickets and bills me $500. I don't really know what he did or why he did it. It just looks like he did the easiest thing in the world. In that situation, that doesn't strike me as fair market value
I go back to the burden of proof again. Instead of complaining that we, the consumer, don't understand fair market value and how we always seem to skimp on quality and go for 'cheap' help us explain what quality means and what it costs. It may not always be tangible but you can write something up like:
$25/post - sealed and treated, guaranteed for 25 yrs, free from termites.
$20/yard - quick cure concrete guaranteed to last 40 years.
$5/picket - sealed, treated, and guaranteed not to crack for 15 yrs.
$50/hr labor - Craftsman with 20 years of experience & has built over 500 fences of your type.
That would explain to me why I'm being charged $50 or $100/hr. If you think your prices are fair then explain them to me. I think most people are intelligent
enough that you can explain your costs to them. You didn't pull them out of thin air, you've worked at them for years and you know what it takes to complete their job based on your standards of craftsmanship and their desired outcome.
If they don't get it or don't want to go with you, or the 'quality' bid, that's on them... and like you said, you'll see them again when it falls apart
I guess it's a lack of trust on my part. When I hire someone to come out and look at trimming my trees or building a fence or doing whatever it is I need done, and they give my property the 'once over' and quote me something I think is high.. I will automatically wonder where they pulled that # out of and go look for someone CHEAPER.
-- btw, I pulled those #s and descriptions out of you-know-where so please don't ding me on them.. I readily admit I'm not in your field of work
haha, now you made me vote for CHEAP just in spite of your arguments
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