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Old 10-29-2009, 08:53 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
399 posts, read 1,135,377 times
Reputation: 192

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousFive View Post
Am I the only one who is in favor of this project? As a property owner in Timberwood park, I actually look forward to this being built. Every toll road I have ever driven on has been exceptionally nice and relatively traffic free. I have no problem paying a premium to drive on a nicer road and get home to be with my family more quickly... plus, people seem to forget that money collected from tolls isn't just to pay for the building of a road; it also pays for maintnance. I would use that toll road constantly. To get to and from work... oh, and lets not forget that if you have to drive on a toll road to get to work, you can deduct what you spend on tolls from your taxes.

This will raise property values, improve quality of life, and most importantly decrease traffic. BTW we are talking about still having 3 or 4 lanes each way as free access roads. That is better that what we have now!
I agree wholeheartedly. However, I, like most in Stone Oak am not originally from SA. I'm from Houston, we're used to toll roads and understand their benefit. In Houston toll roads aren't just for the "rich" areas, the Sam Houston tollway almost completed circles the city, providing access to all.

I'm firmly in support of a toll road on 281 that will keep access limited and speeds at or above the limit. I'm happy to pay quarters a day to get home faster and get out faster. The people who are complaining most likely don't live out here and won't even use the new concrete. If they do, they'll have upgraded feeder roads that are better than what the mainlanes are today. Plus, there will be less traffic on them than on the mainlanes today. Like someone else said, it's a win-win. Even if we got a new freeway for "free" it wouldn't reduce traffic like a limited access toll road will. Those of us that live out here want people off the road, less traffic, not an invitation to simply clog a new "free" freeway in 5 years.

My EZ Tag is on my windshield and ready to go!
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:23 AM
 
Location: SoCal-So Proud!
4,263 posts, read 10,780,436 times
Reputation: 1558
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexHwyMan View Post
Not so. There was money budgeted for 281, but when the edict came down from Austin to build 281 as a toll road, the money that had been set aside was shifted to other road projects in Bexar County. What you're thinking of is the diversions that occur long before the money gets to the local level.



I love it when people say that, like it's some sort of revelation. TxDOT knows that's the solution; the issue is how to pay for those overpasses. The gas tax is no longer providing the revenue stream that's needed to fund these types of projects. The reason for that is three-fold:
  • The Legislature has not raised the gas tax since 1991. Inflation therefore has eaten away a substantial amount of it.
  • Better MPG vehicles use less gas, thus lower gas tax revenues per mile while still having to build and maintain more roads to support those vehicles.
  • The Legislature has siphoned off money from the Highway Fund every year to pay for things like DPS. Plus, the state's constitution allocates 25% of the gas tax to public schools.



They do see these issues coming. TxDOT has all sorts of plans on the books for the future. For instance, they have long-range plans for an expressway on SH 211 because they know that growth is headed that way. So it's not a lack of planning for these things; it's a lack of timely funding. There are only so many dollars to go around.



Not true. Plans were on the books in 1999 to build a toll-free expressway. While the project was waiting for funding, the edict came down from Austin to toll all expressway projects that were in the pipe.





That's a commonly held belief, but traffic signal coordination is not always the magic bullet the public believes it to be. When traffic volumes get heavy, synchronization is not enough to keep things moving. The reason is because synchronization relies on having platoons of vehicles with gaps between them. The gaps are used to allow green time for the side streets. But if too much traffic comes in from the side streets, they fill in the gaps between the platoons and start queuing-up at the next downstream signal. Then the through traffic from upstream piles in behind them and the progression breaks. That's what happens on 281, on 1604, and on Bandera.

BTW, the City of San Antonio is responsible for the signals on 281 south of Marshall, not TxDOT.



Nobody's arguing that the traffic lights are part of the problem. The Super Street will help in that regard.



You can't do that. Those folks have just as much right to have reasonable access to 281-- they pay their taxes, too.



No traffic signal will stay red for 5 minutes if there are cars waiting. Anything longer than about 2-3 minutes starts to cause drivers to disobey the signal, which is a safety hazard. I'll pull out the federal traffic manual tomorrow and see what the max red time allowed is, but I'm quite sure it's less than 5 minutes.



This is because they changed their proposal in the past week. The original proposal would have jeopardized stimulus funds because of how they were moving the money around. They tweaked their plan to eliminate that.



This is misinformation. The bulk of both plans (toll and non-toll) would be 10-12 lanes, which includes the expressway lanes and frontage road lanes. The 20 lane figure is the abolute widest point between Redland and 1604 and includes expressway lanes, frontage road lanes, auxilary lanes connecting to the 1604 ramps, the lanes on the 1604 ramps themselves, and at Redland includes lanes on two frontage road flyovers (like those at 410 and San Pedro.) It is important to note that the toll-free plan would have a similar layout at 1604; the last toll-free plan I saw had 18 lanes in that area.

What I think many people don't understand is that the toll plan and the tax plan both have the same cross-section for the majority of the corridor: 4-6 frontage road lanes and 6-8 expressway lanes. It's only at the 1604 interchange approach that extra lanes are added, just as they are at most other freeway interchanges. I have a page that shows both cross-sections from engineering plans; DM me if you want the link.


I'll close with this: Tommy's plan lost because they had no engineering reports to back-up their cost assertions. So the MPO board couldn't make an educated decision. Tommy pushed a vote, so those on the board who had some common sense decided not to approve a plan that wasn't vetted.

Monday's vote doesn't guarantee tolls on 281 or 1604; it just keeps the option on the table. Nothing can be decided until the environmental study is done in 3 years or so. And if alternate funding is found to do it toll-free, then the MPO and ARMA will do so. They've already proved this with the 281/1604 interchange: the ramps to be built with stimulus funds were originally proposed to be tolled. When the stimulus funds came along, ARMA and the MPO worked to get those funds so they could build them toll-free.
Highway guy- Thank you Moderator cut: see comment

Last edited by Bo; 10-29-2009 at 09:32 AM.. Reason: I explained the issue with this post in my Direct Message.
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Old 10-29-2009, 05:25 PM
 
337 posts, read 823,324 times
Reputation: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs View Post
That depends on what your perception of "traffic issues" are. People coming from other areas may not think twice about a 40-45 min drive from Stone Oak to downtown, especially if they are from a place that has an hour + commute.
More like 45 minutes to 1604 (7 miles)
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Old 10-29-2009, 06:18 PM
 
Location: TX
4,052 posts, read 5,613,424 times
Reputation: 4744
I'm just glad I live outside of the county and don't usually go on that side of S.A. But eventually S.A. will gobble up everything within 50 miles outside of Bexar County....you can run but you can't hide from it! It's coming!
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Old 10-30-2009, 12:39 AM
 
1,836 posts, read 3,803,352 times
Reputation: 1735
What's done is done. San Antonio gets a toll-road... Let's now welcome the 21st century with open arms! Good Lord, you'd think that Jesus himself came back and advised against such evil things with the outcry gotten for a simple road tolling.

Think of it this way: For less than what some of you daily spend on needless crap like Starbucks and McDonalds, you will now have a clean, well-kept, speedy road to drive on. If you don't like that arrangement, you can take I-10 or side streets. Simple as that.


I know I'm in the minority with this opinion, but like those who share it, I've lived in other major cities and know how fantastic tolling can be.




BN
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:19 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
1,287 posts, read 3,804,087 times
Reputation: 928
When I think of toll roads it reminds me of that sorry stretch of I-95 in delaware and New Jersey. Queuing up to get through the toll booths was a PITA!!!!
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:37 AM
 
Location: San Antonio. Tx 78209
2,649 posts, read 7,409,504 times
Reputation: 1763
Collection should be all electronic, through toll tags, or cameras that read license plates.
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes, California
62 posts, read 143,009 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenjaminNicholas View Post


I know I'm in the minority with this opinion, but like those who share it, I've lived in other major cities and know how fantastic tolling can be.
I wholeheartedly agree. I lived on Coronado Island in San Diego during the heady days of a toll-bridge. I also lived there when they abolished the toll. You would be amazed at how much detritus is sifted out for a mere $1.

I have always felt San Antonio has a odd, retrograde tendency towards civic improvements or "new concepts" - be it the Applewhite "lake", the Strangelovian fear of water fluoridation, and now toll roads. It is usually the same slice of doltish firebrands that make the most noise at such meetings - all the while spending more on gas money for their Fπ50 trucks to drive to these meetings than they would in a year on actual toll fees. This is just the cycle perpetuating itself - a new CA Stubbs or Kay Turner will rise from the ashes.

I'll take a clean, efficient and FAST road for a $1 anyday - clear of the recreational driver, the uninsured driver, the 15 year-old driver, or the guy who packs all 15 of his cousins in a Hummer that is a month from repossession. Hell, it might even force people to..... walk?

Last edited by RonLumbergh; 10-30-2009 at 09:52 AM..
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Old 10-30-2009, 10:51 AM
 
Location: 281 north of 1604 - otherwise known as traffic hell
450 posts, read 1,593,025 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by wc2005 View Post
It is a matter of point as much as anything...why would you be willing to pay for a road again? Money was designated in years past to build overpasses and thus eliminate traffic lights on the main corridor but that money was siphoned off to be used on other things, not necessarily related to roads or traffic at all. Both 281 and 1604 on the west side could be greatly helped just by adding some overpasses. Look at 281 inside 1604. Look at 1604 at Culebra (overpass) compared to 1604/151 (traffic light). Tolls should be a last resort as a way to pay for roads. Use the tax money for what it was designed instead of on whatever other pet project that pops up.
You do realize that those plans are wholly inadequate, right? If built today, the overpasses wouldn't work. Much less in 10 more years when even more people move out tihs way.
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Old 10-30-2009, 11:01 AM
 
Location: 281 north of 1604 - otherwise known as traffic hell
450 posts, read 1,593,025 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenjaminNicholas View Post
What's done is done. San Antonio gets a toll-road... Let's now welcome the 21st century with open arms! Good Lord, you'd think that Jesus himself came back and advised against such evil things with the outcry gotten for a simple road tolling.

Think of it this way: For less than what some of you daily spend on needless crap like Starbucks and McDonalds, you will now have a clean, well-kept, speedy road to drive on. If you don't like that arrangement, you can take I-10 or side streets. Simple as that.


I know I'm in the minority with this opinion, but like those who share it, I've lived in other major cities and know how fantastic tolling can be.




BN


quoted for emphasis.

Please give me a toll road so that I have an OPTION.
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