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I heard states like NJ and others are thinking of adding a tax to electric car owners, because they say they dont have to pay gas tax like everyone else...the politicians dont care about the environment all they care about it money.
I heard they were going to build free solar charging stations up and down the coast of CA, have they done this already? If they did, how long is the wait, its really the only thing holding me back, the range is like 300-500 miles and it takes like 1-2 hrs to recharge, right?
I hope Tesla's selling model won't replace what we have now. If car dealers go away, I can see we all will have to pay MSRP for cars. We can't pit one dealer against the other and get them to price match. The idea of lost leader will be gone. There's no reason for them to "compete" because they know the store down the street will charge you the same MSRP. I recently just helped someone bought a loss leader Honda Accord. The out the door price was less than the invoice price. I pitted dealers in LA/OC vs SD and got the best price. If I have to pay MSRP for that car, I'd have to pay ~20% more for the same car.
No worries Doc...it will take a long time for the system to change. Well, I think most wise people for a while now have used sites like Edmunds.com or the like to buy cars and get the dealerships to compete with one another. It's really the wise way to buy a car.
But I wouldn't get too caught up in MSRP. As I understand it, it's all a bit of smoke and mirrors anyway. Plenty of ways the dealership makes money. The "MSRP" might have meant something decades ago but I think the dealerships have adapted to the fact that everyone has access to this information and they find ways to manipulate that MSRP now.
I'm all for ways in which you can cut out middle men to save money. But I'm not sure we'll see it in most of our lifetimes in the car industry. Lots of big money that like the way the system is now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ7
I heard they were going to build free solar charging stations up and down the coast of CA, have they done this already? If they did, how long is the wait, its really the only thing holding me back, the range is like 300-500 miles and it takes like 1-2 hrs to recharge, right?
Yes, Tesla started building superchargers (see map below). And see how much they plan to expand it over the next few years. The supercharging stations are free for Model S owners for the life of the vehicle. (Can you say roadtrip!)
The rapid battery swap is pretty cool too! Watch the video. A fresh battery change in less than 90 seconds. Although I can't see myself paying to swap out a battery unless I'm on a road trip and I can't wait for the recharge while I'm eating (and even then it costs less than a regular tank of gas). Again, the technology is truly amazing!
Truly awesome, it looks like you can drive from San Diego to San Francisco on the super charger.
When I get back to SD, please keep me away from any test drives
Yeah, they are expanding the network! I've never been the road trip type as I prefer airplanes but something tells me once the car comes I'll be driving a lot more.
sfosyd, let me know the next time you are in town and we'll break bread as we talked about and I'll let you take a spin in the new car. If you haven't driven one before it's quite a feeling.
No worries Doc...it will take a long time for the system to change. Well, I think most wise people for a while now have used sites like Edmunds.com or the like to buy cars and get the dealerships to compete with one another. It's really the wise way to buy a car.
But I wouldn't get too caught up in MSRP. As I understand it, it's all a bit of smoke and mirrors anyway. Plenty of ways the dealership makes money. The "MSRP" might have meant something decades ago but I think the dealerships have adapted to the fact that everyone has access to this information and they find ways to manipulate that MSRP now.
I'm all for ways in which you can cut out middle men to save money. But I'm not sure we'll see it in most of our lifetimes in the car industry. Lots of big money that like the way the system is now.
MSRP is exactly that, Manufacture Suggested Retail Price. So, w/out having dealers to pit at each other, you will be paying MSRP. Somehow, you think that just because we remove dealers that we'll also remove the profit/cost associated w/ the dealers. I don't think that will be the case. I can totally see Tesla, Nissan, etc. all will keep the profit that dealers currently make AND more. Since there will no longer any competition. We all will be paying MSRP, since they don't care where you're buying, they know you can't get it lower than MSRP. That's also why I think Tesla have the highest margin per vehicle right now. Not only do they have the profit for making the vehicle, they also have the profit for selling the vehicles as well.
MSRP is exactly that, Manufacture Suggested Retail Price. So, w/out having dealers to pit at each other, you will be paying MSRP. Somehow, you think that just because we remove dealers that we'll also remove the profit/cost associated w/ the dealers. I don't think that will be the case. I can totally see Tesla, Nissan, etc. all will keep the profit that dealers currently make AND more. Since there will no longer any competition. We all will be paying MSRP, since they don't care where you're buying, they know you can't get it lower than MSRP. That's also why I think Tesla have the highest margin per vehicle right now. Not only do they have the profit for making the vehicle, they also have the profit for selling the vehicles as well.
Well I still think the actual manufacturers will have tremendous competition with one another. Just like the discount brokers keep getting cheaper and cheaper fighting for volume competing with one another.
You have to remember that if these manufacturers get rid of the traditional model, their bloated payrolls and cost structure will also go down tremendously. I'm not saying it will be as easy or simple as some of us are saying. But I don't underestimate the power of competition and technology to make business more efficient and pure.
It will take time but I think that heading into the future, many traditional business models will get totally disrupted heading into the future. And I don't think that is a bad thing. You sound like you enjoy haggling with car salesmen, but I'd venture to guess the majority of Americans don't enjoy that process. Of course I could be wrong.
The last two cars I purchased (both new) in 2011, I simply went on Edmunds.com and had dealers in the area fighting over my business. Yes, they have the MSRP and the "invoice price" but those are really artificial type numbers these days. Trust me..I have several friends in the car business....
I think with a total change in the future business model, I don't see car prices going up but going down with a drastic reduction in bloated overhead.
Last edited by earlyretirement; 07-16-2013 at 11:33 PM..
Well I still think the actual manufacturers will have tremendous competition with one another. Just like the discount brokers keep getting cheaper and cheaper fighting for volume competing with one another.
You have to remember that if these manufacturers get rid of the traditional model, their bloated payrolls and cost structure will also go down tremendously. I'm not saying it will be as easy or simple as some of us are saying. But I don't underestimate the power of competition and technology to make business more efficient and pure.
It will take time but I think that heading into the future, many traditional business models will get totally disrupted heading into the future. And I don't think that is a bad thing. You sound like you enjoy haggling with car salesmen, but I'd venture to guess the majority of Americans don't enjoy that process. Of course I could be wrong.
The last two cars I purchased (both new) in 2011, I simply went on Edmunds.com and had dealers in the area fighting over my business. Yes, they have the MSRP and the "invoice price" but those are really artificial type numbers these days. Trust me..I have several friends in the car business....
I think with a total change in the future business model, I don't see car prices going up but going down with a drastic reduction in bloated overhead.
I don't think that's a correct analogy. The discount broker doesn't make the stock. I also don't believe actual manufacturers have as much competition as you think that will affect the price. Just look at your Tesla purchase for example. Did you consider a E550 or a 550 because it's cheaper? Probably not. You wanted the Tesla for a particular reason. Now that you wanted a Tesla, you're stuck w/ 1 price that Tesla set. No room for negotiation. You pay what they tell you to pay. Now, the same thing happen to me in my last 2 car purchases. We narrow down to the exact car we want. Prices between different manufacturer doesn't matter as much as the other features that we're looking for. So, by the time we're ready to buy, we only have 1 car we wanted to buy. But then I was able to negotiate a price that's well below invoice. The manufacturer AND the dealer that I bought from made a lot less off my car purchase than Tesla made off your car purchase. So, just because there's no dealer "middleman" doesn't mean you eliminated that cost. If anything, they feel like they can gouge you even more.
Keep in mind that what you're suggesting is removing competition and not adding competition. Which is why I'm afraid the price will only go up. As for technology, we already have that. How else can I contacted all the dealer in the Southern CA w/in 1/2 hour and get them to compete w/ each other. How else would I know what the MSRP, invoice, and what others are paying for the exact same car (Hassle-free car-buying experience from a nationwide network of certified dealers. - TrueCar). I think what you're suggesting will remove both of those, because site like truecar.com will be useless because car company will control the price you have to pay (MSRP). So, what you're suggesting, I don't think is heading into the future, but more like going back to the past.
I don't enjoy haggling with car salesmen. But I do enjoy getting a great deal. I would much rather get the price I got from all the dealers without haggling. But that's not the case. W/ your model, it will be impossible for me to do so. Will it make my life easier? Most definitely. But will I be able to get the bet prices? Probably not.
Just keep in mind, just because a company remove bloat doesn't always equate to lower prices to the end consumers. Just look at Tesla as a prime example. There is a reason why they make the most profit per car. It's not because they gave consumers the best price.
I don't think that's a correct analogy. The discount broker doesn't make the stock. I also don't believe actual manufacturers have as much competition as you think that will affect the price. Just look at your Tesla purchase for example. Did you consider a E550 or a 550 because it's cheaper? Probably not. You wanted the Tesla for a particular reason. Now that you wanted a Tesla, you're stuck w/ 1 price that Tesla set. No room for negotiation. You pay what they tell you to pay. Now, the same thing happen to me in my last 2 car purchases. We narrow down to the exact car we want. Prices between different manufacturer doesn't matter as much as the other features that we're looking for. So, by the time we're ready to buy, we only have 1 car we wanted to buy. But then I was able to negotiate a price that's well below invoice. The manufacturer AND the dealer that I bought from made a lot less off my car purchase than Tesla made off your car purchase. So, just because there's no dealer "middleman" doesn't mean you eliminated that cost. If anything, they feel like they can gouge you even more.
Keep in mind that what you're suggesting is removing competition and not adding competition. Which is why I'm afraid the price will only go up. As for technology, we already have that. How else can I contacted all the dealer in the Southern CA w/in 1/2 hour and get them to compete w/ each other. How else would I know what the MSRP, invoice, and what others are paying for the exact same car (Hassle-free car-buying experience from a nationwide network of certified dealers. - TrueCar). I think what you're suggesting will remove both of those, because site like truecar.com will be useless because car company will control the price you have to pay (MSRP). So, what you're suggesting, I don't think is heading into the future, but more like going back to the past.
I don't enjoy haggling with car salesmen. But I do enjoy getting a great deal. I would much rather get the price I got from all the dealers without haggling. But that's not the case. W/ your model, it will be impossible for me to do so. Will it make my life easier? Most definitely. But will I be able to get the bet prices? Probably not.
Just keep in mind, just because a company remove bloat doesn't always equate to lower prices to the end consumers. Just look at Tesla as a prime example. There is a reason why they make the most profit per car. It's not because they gave consumers the best price.
It might not be the right analogy but you get my point about competition and the lowering of prices over time I'm sure.
I don't think you can compare Tesla and their margins with ANY other car manufacturer out there. Because there is absolutely NO car out there that is comparable to the Model S. None.
Look at the arguments against the industry for the reason why they don't want Tesla's model:
Again, you are arguing that all of these companies will use this to keep prices higher when I think you will find that will be the opposite of what would happen. Right now the dealers have too much power and when you take that power away, you will find a MUCH more competitive environment. One in which prices would come down not up.
It is a long uphill battle because the lobby and special interest for these dealerships is powerful and they contribute to a lot of the politicians but ultimately I think there is only so long they can prevent it. We might not see it anytime soon but I do believe that it will change in the distant future.
Why do you think the dealers are fighting so hard against this? It's certainly NOT to protect the consumer. It's to protect themselves and their profits. If Tesla had the traditional bloated route same as a dealership the cost of the car would be much much more expensive having to pay for a lot of overhead, commissions to salesmen, etc. They totally avoid all of that.
Vehicles will become cheaper to buy when you can buy them through Amazon.
Doc, if you're willing to play the haggling games, please have at it. I refuse to do it any more. Even the AAA buying service didn't save us from it this time.
I *hate* coming home from a vehicle dealership wanting desperately to take a shower.
Location: San Diego via Orange County via Toronto via Rome Italy
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If car dealeships go away, there will be a massive ripple-effect to the vinyl and polyester industry
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