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Old 03-28-2016, 01:10 PM
 
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Having no middle class isn't economically as bad as it sounds. If you look at much of the Northeastern US, and especially places like SF or LA, it's already happened and those cities are still growing. Rich people own most of the resources and the poor consume them. Whether or not it's good socially is a different question.
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Old 03-28-2016, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
452 posts, read 339,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassberto View Post
Having no middle class isn't economically as bad as it sounds. If you look at much of the Northeastern US, and especially places like SF or LA, it's already happened and those cities are still growing. Rich people own most of the resources and the poor consume them. Whether or not it's good socially is a different question.
If you look at places like South Africa and Brazil where the divide between rich and poor is huge and there is not much of a middle class you see a lot more violence and a lot more crime. There is also a race element and this makes things particularly contentious.

If this trend continues in the US we will see consequences and the freedom we have currently will decrease. I don't want to be part of a poor middle class that can't afford housing anywhere near amenities, recreation, or where I work. But I also wouldn't want to be part of a wealthy class that has to have high walls and guard dogs and fancy alarm systems or be restricted to only armed guard beach areas and fancy pool clubs.
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Old 03-28-2016, 03:38 PM
 
Location: San Diego A.K.A "D.A.Y.G.O City"
1,963 posts, read 3,707,332 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnS_15 View Post
If you look at places like South Africa and Brazil where the divide between rich and poor is huge and there is not much of a middle class you see a lot more violence and a lot more crime. There is also a race element and this makes things particularly contentious.

If this trend continues in the US we will see consequences and the freedom we have currently will decrease. I don't want to be part of a poor middle class that can't afford housing anywhere near amenities, recreation, or where I work. But I also wouldn't want to be part of a wealthy class that has to have high walls and guard dogs and fancy alarm systems or be restricted to only armed guard beach areas and fancy pool clubs.


A stable middle class is crucial for keeping everything, and everyone in "check". Like you said, having only the rich and poor that dominate in certain countries, always follows with increased levels of violence, anger, and other bad social and economical problems. Plus, corruption just gets worse.
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Old 03-28-2016, 03:55 PM
 
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I don't buy the Brazil or SA argument. USA is not Brazil or SA and especially not San Diego. Look at Detroit - it has no rich people AND no middle class and there's nothing but abandonment and blight. No one wants to live there.

I agree with the idea that no one is guaranteed a place by birthright, that has never been the American way, that's more the French or German view.

San Diego has a LOT of wealth and most of it is idle, retired, leisure wealth which doesn't build businesses that help others to get wealthy, think more Florida and less Johannesburg.
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Old 03-28-2016, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
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Originally Posted by Sassberto View Post
USA is not Brazil or SA and especially not San Diego....

San Diego has a LOT of wealth and most of it is idle, retired, leisure wealth which doesn't build businesses that help others to get wealthy, think more Florida and less Johannesburg.
Ok. I agree - San Diego is not Johannesburg or Rio and is not likely to become like it in the near future. But why is the US not like SA or Brazil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassberto View Post
Look at Detroit - it has no rich people AND no middle class and there's nothing but abandonment and blight. No one wants to live there.
Yeah violent crime in the U.S follows areas with poverty and unemployment. It comes from a place of desperation.

So my understanding of what you are saying... middle class will become smaller. Desirable cities will become places where only the very wealthy can afford to live anywhere decent. The true middle and working class will be isolated to undesirable pockets and to far out commuter suburbs. So basically the current trends that are happening already will become more pronounced. Maybe the poor will be happy enough with their lot in life or maybe they won't...

I believe that if this pattern continues that it will have social repercussions and that the environment will become more like that of countries with a big divide between rich and poor. Crime will increase because poverty and resentment will lead to desperation. Don't underestimate how disillusionment can affect people... look at the rise of Donald Trump right now. Never would have thought that an egotistical bully would have a shot at winning the US presidency. He's thriving on disillusionment and people looking for answers. But where is this coming from? Why are people so unhappy?
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Old 03-28-2016, 07:36 PM
 
8,273 posts, read 26,339,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnS_15 View Post

So my understanding of what you are saying... middle class will become smaller. Desirable cities will become places where only the very wealthy can afford to live anywhere decent. The true middle and working class will be isolated to undesirable pockets and to far out commuter suburbs. So basically the current trends that are happening already will become more pronounced. Maybe the poor will be happy enough with their lot in life or maybe they won't...
Yes, exactly what has been happening in this country for 40+ years. As long as everyone has a car and a smartphone everything will be fine.
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Old 03-28-2016, 08:49 PM
 
26,114 posts, read 28,514,332 times
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Originally Posted by JohnS_15 View Post
If you look at places like South Africa and Brazil where the divide between rich and poor is huge and there is not much of a middle class you see a lot more violence and a lot more crime. There is also a race element and this makes things particularly contentious.

If this trend continues in the US we will see consequences and the freedom we have currently will decrease. I don't want to be part of a poor middle class that can't afford housing anywhere near amenities, recreation, or where I work. But I also wouldn't want to be part of a wealthy class that has to have high walls and guard dogs and fancy alarm systems or be restricted to only armed guard beach areas and fancy pool clubs.
Spot on. I think most people would agree with you.

However, there's a deep split on how to fix it. Many want more government rules and regulations (i.e. $15 minimum wage). Others say the rules and regulations created many of the problems in the first place (and even some on the liberal side admit that the real estate market is rigged against the poor & middle class....they simply don't build much housing, so that inflates prices & rents).
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Old 03-28-2016, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
452 posts, read 339,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassberto View Post
Yes, exactly what has been happening in this country for 40+ years. As long as everyone has a car and a smartphone everything will be fine.
You are probably right.

But what about when football gets taken away? Health and safety issues the way they are going. Maybe that's the straw that breaks the camels back...
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Old 03-29-2016, 07:21 AM
 
Location: San Diego
35,203 posts, read 32,177,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnS_15 View Post
You are probably right.

But what about when football gets taken away? Health and safety issues the way they are going. Maybe that's the straw that breaks the camels back...
What do you mean gets taken away? They'll still be on tv the way they used to be. If you can afford to go to an NFL game you can afford a mortgage. I think some people's priorities are questionable. For me to take my family to 1 (one) game with any food or beverages is well over 500 bucks.

Four games a month is a mortgage on a condo.
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Old 03-29-2016, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Sacramento
452 posts, read 339,109 times
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Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
What do you mean gets taken away? They'll still be on tv the way they used to be. If you can afford to go to an NFL game you can afford a mortgage. I think some people's priorities are questionable. For me to take my family to 1 (one) game with any food or beverages is well over 500 bucks.

Four games a month is a mortgage on a condo.
Ya I was only being half serious. As Sassberto mentioned...as long as the lower classes are placated with smart phones, TVs and affordable cars and fuel they won't kick up as much fuss. I was just alluding to sports role in that and pro-football being the most popular. With the concussions and safety issue - will college and pro-football exist as we know them today in 10 years? 20 years?
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