Downtown San Diego is a disgrace (San Jose, San Francisco: city hall, how much, townhomes)

[the topper]

Just about every investment made in Downtown SD in 1980's flopped: Horton Plaza, C street light rail mall, Seaport Village and Horton Pl. park. Investments made after also flopped: Petco Park, Paladium upscale Shopping mall, Symphony hall and even convention center since it's losing money. Nothing worked in Downtown SD. What's going on? There are developments of high rises downtown, but downtown is completely failing since it's dead in the middle of the weekday. Housing on one side and some offices in the other side: doesn't make a downtown vibrant. Am I wrong?

[USDefault]

Originally Posted by the topper

JWhat's going on?

A populace bankrupted by skyhigh housing costs, highest-in-the-nation taxes and fees, and crushing utility costs, among other things. Worse, San Diego employers generally pay lower wages than Los Angeles and the Bay Area.

Basically, people work to pay the rent/mortgage, the SDGE bill, and the San Diego H20 bill. Few have the time, money, and patience to trudge through lots of traffic, pay to park, and then start dumping money at Petco, Horton, or anyplace else downtown. If you don't have business or employment downtown, you're not going there, period.

I lived in San Diego for twenty years. I could easily afford downtown amenities, and I was downtown lots for business. But, actual number of times I traveled to downtown San Diego outside of official business? Probably ten times over two decades, i.e. once every couple years, and likely even less than that. And I bet the answer is the same for the vast majority of San Diego county residents.

And the last time I was downtown, around six or seven months ago, it was as bad as I've ever experienced. Homeless everywhere, ranting, screaming. Multiple police encounters with people who were obviously methed out. And it smelled bad, because more areas are being treated like open sewers. I saw it firsthand, and posted about it, and I took all this in on my daily urban hikes while in town on business. Bottom line, downtown San Diego is turning into a massive dump. I can afford a place in downtown San Diego. If I ever return, even at half the cost, I would never, ever buy a place in that sewer. I'll stick to North County coastal, thank you.

[kettlepot]

Originally Posted by the topper

JHorton Plaza, C street light rail mall, Seaport Village and Horton Pl. park. Investments made after also flopped: Petco Park, Paladium upscale Shopping mall, Symphony hall and even convention center since it's losing money.

You're not wrong, but you're being a bit unfair. Horton Plaza succeeded very well for the first 10 - 15 years, until malls EVERYWHERE began to suffer. I don't blame the struggles of Horton Plaza and the Paladium Mall on something unique to Downtown.

The Convention Center can't be judged by its own balance sheet alone, but also by accounting for the TOT tax payed by the hotel guests.

Seaport Village was just dumb to begin with, but again I'm not sure I blame that on Downtown.

Symphony Hall struggles because people are not consuming culture and entertainment in mass settings the way they used to. I guess you could fault the Downtown poo-bahs for putting money into it, but the hall has a beautiful interior and needed to be saved.

I didn't know that Petco Park was a flop.

I guess you are accurate in faulting the struggles Horton Plaza Park is having on its Downtown location and the sea of homeless that live there. Unfortunately, California's courts have essentially found a constitutional right to housing for anyone who sets foot in California. Therefore, if you're going to be drunk, drugged, or mentally whacko, you might as well do that on the streets of coastal California until the State/County/City finally gives up and builds an apartment for you rather than provide roads, parks, libraries, fire and police protection for the people footing the bill.

I would say that the high rise housing in Little Italy, along the bay west of the Gaslamp, and Cortez Hill has succeeded and that could spread. What Downtown really needs are more higher paying jobs, that are currently clustering into University City and Sorrento Valley/Mesa.

[moved]

Originally Posted by the topper

Just about every investment made in Downtown SD in 1980's flopped: Horton Plaza, C street light rail mall, Seaport Village and Horton Pl. park. Investments made after also flopped: Petco Park, Paladium upscale Shopping mall, Symphony hall and even convention center since it's losing money. Nothing worked in Downtown SD. What's going on? There are developments of high rises downtown, but downtown is completely failing since it's dead in the middle of the weekday. Housing on one side and some offices in the other side: doesn't make a downtown vibrant. Am I wrong?

Maybe you should go back to posting about your wonderful San Jose, since it has everything.

[malcorub16]

Topper is obsessed with San Jose and comparing it to other cities. In his own polls, SJ loses every time.

Which city is better: Seattle or San Jose?

San Jose vs Boston

Which is a better city: Philly or San Jose?

Also, what exactly is/was the Palladium Mall?
I don't believe I heard of that one?

I was downtown the day after Thanksgiving doing Sea Port Village, Harbor Cruise and the Downtown Waterfront Park with out of town guests. There were so many people everywhere walking along the waterfront, near the mid-way museum and also there was a cruise ship docked.

Downtown has it's flaws but it also isn't a complete failure.

[sdlife619]

Driving to downtown everyday to pick up riders, and to my surprise downtown is pretty dead for the most part during the day. I just see random people like tourist walking, residents jogging around, hardly anyone in business attire working. Way too much new construction has been focused on condos, which downtown SD doesn’t need anymore of. It needs a massive influx of newer commercial property (no more hotels either) if it wants create a more business oriented atmosphere. There absolutely zero hustle and bustle downtown, it feels more as no one is actually working and just sort of taking a “stroll”.

A lot of the old downtown is going away, it’s losing its grit and character every time an old structure is demolished and replaced by huge plain, boring and soulless condo towers, it feels more suburban strangely since some of the new structures look like they belong in the burbs . In the same process, it also removes small businesses that have been in certain spaces for years. There’s more big chain corporate owned businesses popping up when a new structure is built because the small business owner can’t afford the lease spaces like a Subway, or Starbucks can. The saturation of 7-Eleven’s and Starbucks in downtown makes me sick to my stomach and it’s really starting to make DT look and feel less special and unique as time has gone on.

The rich and poor desparity is so obvious, the homeless are still everywhere even though the city just built huge tents in EV to house many of them. Just wait until those tents are taking down after winter, the influx of homeless is going be even worse.

Downtown SD relies too much on the service industry which has a high turn over rate. Many restaurants and bars in the Gaslamp have come and gone.

[the topper]

Restaurants left and right are closing in East Village to my surprise. Even in the Gaslamp, businesses have closed: Borders, cinemas and Blush. Only thing positive: Holland Partners’ U C high rise, Ballpark tower, Pacific Gate/ Bayside towers by Bosa and 2nd Pinnacles tower along with several more residential/hotel towers. They’re too scattered built and they do nothing to really revitalize downtown with way too many black eyes.

[loveautumn]

Now that all Weisfield properties worldwide have been sold to French real estate company, it will be interesting to see what they do with SD malls...Horton, UTC, Fashion Valley.

[T. Damon]

There are so many new restaurants, breweries, distilleries, hotels, mixed use developments and residential towers already present and/or under construction right now in addition to massive, several block encompassing neighborhood developments; Seaport San Diego, Pacific Gateway, I.D.E.A. District, along with the 44 acres on Eastern Harbor Island in the pipeline I can’t even keep track and I’m in the architecture industry. There are several billion dollars of approved and funded development- a quarter of downtown feels like a construction zone right now- hardly the signs of a failing city.

Topper’s poorly withheld jealousy of San Diego notwithstanding, downtown has its flaws like every good city. Homeless in a mild West Coast city? Shocker there! Blocks of quieter areas that don’t feel like NYC? NO, YOU’RE KIDDING!!!? But it also feels like a real city going through some growing pains but showing some character and vibrancy along the way.

We just got back from our weekend walk down and like last weekend had a great time as always. Met some interesting folks along the way. Cool exhibits at both SDSU Gallery and MCASD, Craft Show at Horton Plaza Park, the Harbor was beautiful, Little Italy was as vibrant as any great city, had some great fried chicken at the Crack Shack outside. Popped into gorgeous Born & Raised, Juniper & Ivy and Herb & Wood to take in the great interior architecture and proud of the great restaurant scene we have here. Had a fun bus ride home with some new folks to talk to. We went ice skating on Wednesday night at the Hilton Bay Front, we will be going back downtown to the ballet tonight. We will most likely walk down there again tomorrow.

You can live in a boring satellite suburb of a great city like San Jose is to San Francisco and beetch about a real city with a real downtown like San Diego, with real challenges and real culture not knowing what else to do with your life or you can enjoy the dynamic downtown you have a couple of miles away and take it all in warts and all like we do. Take your pick.

The thread needs to die but at least I gave something for Topper to do on his Saturday night in San Jose.

[moved]

If all of these businesses are closing, why are there new restaurants continually being opened downtown, including a french bakery?