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Old 06-25-2010, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
527 posts, read 807,149 times
Reputation: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fantastic View Post
Again, you cannot give specifics of the crimes. Assault can be simply a fist fight, which most of them probably are near Nob Hill. You can't compare Gang Activity to fist fighting. The type of crime is very important. Since you can't come up with specifics, we can use Nationally collected risk factors to see who is right:

As you can see, these stats show that there is 4 times the risk of being murdered and 3 times the risk of being raped in the area the OP is thinking of moving to, compared to Nob Hill.

That being said, I've always said all along both neighborhoods are surrounded by shady areas, except for the fact that Nob Hill itself is populated with very rich families, and because of that, police presence, and safety is catered towards such. This isn't true of East Oakland. A silly comparison, then again, I didn't make it, you did.
SFPD doesn't post the details of its assaults, so saying that it is primarily fistfights is pure speculation, not based on fact.

I used the "proximity to crime" factor because it's the one you continuously use - a risk factor analysis is much more scientific than randomly pulling stats to include neighboring areas. However, comparing a zip code to a neighborhood is apples to oranges - what is the website where you found the data, and does it indicate a risk factor level for Maxwell Park, specifically (rather than the entire zip code)?

Edited to add: Zip codes searches can be misleading, also - what it comes down to is "is the crime this-a-way, or that-a-way" - it doesn't address the feeling of the particular locale in which someone is searching. For that "feeling," a subjective response is usually the best, and there were a couple given in this thread - 18Montclair's, as well as one poster who mentioned that he walks his dog in the neighborhood, and noticed that there was the blight of a boarded up building, and there were traffic issues with one of the main thoroughfares, but otherwise didn't mention feeling unsafe.

From Berkeley Parents Network:

I used to live in Maxwell Park and really liked it. The best thing is that it's diverse and very friendly. You get to know your neighbors and kids actually play outside. I never had a safety problem- the only area I would avoid is right near Foothill Blvd. You can get great produce (including organic), fish and meat at Farmer Joe's market, just 5 minutes away at 35th Ave and MacArthur. It's very popular (but not too busy), and the owner and workers are very friendly and get to know you. Also, a certified Farmers Market just started near Mills College/MacArthur Blvd- fresh regular and organic produce- I hear it's very popular.
Finally, it's wonderful to be near Mills College. It's a beautiful campus to ride your bikes, and you can swim in their fabulous pool at specific times for a pretty reasonable cost. Mills also has free and low cost student, faculty and guest concerts (mostly classical) and plays. It was great not to have to travel far to attend a good concert/play. Diane



The activity described by one person/poster who used to live in Maxwell Park sounds like what established neighbors remember going on about 10 years ago, not now. The area has changed quite a bit. New families have moved in, contractors are renovating bungalows, and the resale value of houses seems to reflect the desirability and charm of this neighborhood.
We love it here. I walk the hills 3-4 times a week with a friend in the spring/summer, often after 8 p.m. and have never felt like I was in danger. It's been a fun way to meet the people who live here. I haven't experienced excessive loudness (other than on July 4), gangs, or anything that resembles it. Actually, for the first few months after we moved in I kept commenting to my husband how quiet it was at night. Of course, the best way to learn about a neighborhood is to walk around and ask the people who live here. angela

Last edited by lmk1707; 06-25-2010 at 07:37 PM..

 
Old 06-25-2010, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Mission Viejo, CA / San Rafael, CA
2,352 posts, read 2,753,325 times
Reputation: 510
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmk1707 View Post

I used the "proximity to crime" factor because it's the one you continuously use - a risk factor analysis is much more scientific than randomly pulling stats to include neighboring areas.
Ahh, so first it's "Look at the stats, the crime rates are the same!", then after being proven wrong it's "stats don't tell the whole story", especially after they conclusively put your point into the ground.

Now it's about "some guy/girl who said they walked their dog through the neighborhood and thought it was okay."

It is interesting to see you squiggle and squirm from points you cornered yourself into defending.
 
Old 06-25-2010, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
527 posts, read 807,149 times
Reputation: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fantastic View Post
Ahh, so stats don't tell the whole story now, after they conclusively put your point into the ground. Now it's about "some guy/girl who said they walked their dog through the neighborhood and thought it was okay."

Interesting.
I've never thought stats told the whole story. That's more your deal. I wouldn't say they "conclusively put my points into the ground" either, since a neighborhood seen as safe, desirable, and generally "nice" in San Francisco, not to mention is four times the cost of this Oakland neighborhood, has so many violent crimes nearby. The point is that someone can be safe in their immediate neighborhood, even if there is a lot of violent crime nearby - I think Nob Hill is a great neighborhood, and I love the Grace Cathedral & park, but it does have proximity to the Tenderloin, where a lot of at times very random, and very violent, activity occurs. It wouldn't stop me from living there if that's where I chose, same as the neighborhood of which this thread is about.

If you live in Nob Hill, you should know to avoid the Tenderloin - 425 violent crimes within a mile should not be ignored, and if you live in Maxwell Park, you should know not to wander west into DEO - the relative crime stats there should not be ignored, either. It doesn't mean that living in either place you will be in danger, though Nob Hill actually has significantly more nuisance crime, such as theft. The OP didn't want to be subjected to hearing shootings every night, or police activity cordoning off the area due because of murder or crime. This neighborhood fits that criteria.

In addition, if you're going to mention the worst ghettos of East Oakland, you should also mention the safest parts as well - Oakland is a big city. I live in East Oakland (Cleveland Heights), and feel safe as can be.

DEO and parts of West Oakland are tragic - there's no other word. Elijah Anderson (a sociologist) has identified some of the issues that govern places like DEO, which is half the battle - it gives government and concerned citizens a place to concentrate their efforts.

That said - proximity to DEO doesn't make a place dangerous. Violent crimes in Oakland are extremely territorial, and Maxwell Park is not part of that territory. Maxwell Park doesn't give one the sense of uneasiness that places like the Tenderloin, certain parts of SoMa, West Oakland, DEO, Bayview, or Hunter's Point do. In those places, the tension is palpable - in Maxwell Park, you're looking at a residential neighborhood with families and elderly neighbors.

I'll concede that your relative risk index is more scientific than your usual argument points, but you didn't lead off with it, it still doesn't tell the full story, and doesn't account for the fact that many, many people live happily and comfortably in East Oakland, and the OP very likely will be one of them.

Last edited by lmk1707; 06-25-2010 at 08:18 PM..
 
Old 06-25-2010, 08:31 PM
 
2,172 posts, read 2,361,730 times
Reputation: 1446
I don't think e14th, e, 15, or e 17th are relevant. I would not consider them MAxwell Park. In fact, let's just say they are not. Seminary is a LONG street and busy. Only about 4-5 block of it are close enough for me to consider. The only possibly relevant street is Holoway.

I'm guessing you don't live in the area


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fantastic View Post
According to statistics gathered by local law enforcement:

East Oakland (Seminary & Maxwell Park) Violent Crime in the past 7 days:
6/23/2010: Strong Armed Robbery, 58xx International Blvd.
6/22/2010: Violent Assault, Man hit with a crowbar, Holway St.
6/22/2010: Robbery, Victim held up at gunpoint, Seminay Ave.
6/20/2010: Gun fire, suspect at large, E 15th Street.
6/19/2010: Gang fight. 2 arrested, Holway St.
6/19/2010: Robbery. Car Jacking with firearm, 61xx E 17th Street.

I looked at the 7 day history of "violent crime" for Nob Hill, and couldn't find a SINGLE car jacking at gunpoint, robbery at gunpoint, discharged weapon crime, or a single gang fight. In fact, the majority of Nob Hill crimes are theft, just as I stated earlier in the thread.

That's why you're point doesn't stand.
 
Old 06-26-2010, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Mission Viejo, CA / San Rafael, CA
2,352 posts, read 2,753,325 times
Reputation: 510
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmk1707 View Post

I'll concede that your relative risk index is more scientific than your usual argument points, but you didn't lead off with it, it still doesn't tell the full story, and doesn't account for the fact that many, many people live happily and comfortably in East Oakland, and the OP very likely will be one of them.
I've never made the point that people in East Oakland do not live happily in their neighborhoods, that's a point you invented, in fact I explained "crime tolerance" much earlier in the thread.

But now that you're admitting that the risk index is relevant, I think we both know what it indicates about the OP's area; it's simply much more dangerous than Nob Hill statistically.
 
Old 06-26-2010, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Mission Viejo, CA / San Rafael, CA
2,352 posts, read 2,753,325 times
Reputation: 510
Quote:
Originally Posted by baybook View Post
I don't think e14th, e, 15, or e 17th are relevant. I would not consider them MAxwell Park. In fact, let's just say they are not. Seminary is a LONG street and busy. Only about 4-5 block of it are close enough for me to consider. The only possibly relevant street is Holoway.

I'm guessing you don't live in the area
A gang fight took place only .7 miles away from the OP's cross street. You simply don't know how to read a map properly.
 
Old 06-26-2010, 11:51 PM
 
13,128 posts, read 23,424,760 times
Reputation: 7384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fantastic View Post
A gang fight took place only .7 miles away from the OP's cross street. You simply don't know how to read a map properly.
Where do you suggest the 400k+ Oakland residents relocate?

I know each of my neighbors on the length of the street I reside... it is a mixture of races and there isn't a bad one in the bunch...

If Oakland is so sketchy... how does one explain the desirability of Piedmont which is 100% located within the the City of Oakland? Piedmont does not have secured borders and people from Oakland are free to come and go and yet the area is very sought after.
 
Old 06-27-2010, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Mission Viejo, CA / San Rafael, CA
2,352 posts, read 2,753,325 times
Reputation: 510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
Where do you suggest the 400k+ Oakland residents relocate?
If they can afford it, nearby North Berkeley/Berkeley is much safer, and maintains the "urbanity" many seek, but without the violent crime.

Quote:
I know each of my neighbors on the length of the street I reside... it is a mixture of races and there isn't a bad one in the bunch...
Again that's personal opinion based on your own tolerance. We can only use the statistics to really have an unbiased discussion because for every "I love my 2 bedroom shack in Oakland" post, you will find people who simply can't stand Oakland for various reasons.

Quote:
If Oakland is so sketchy... how does one explain the desirability of Piedmont which is 100% located within the the City of Oakland? Piedmont does not have secured borders and people from Oakland are free to come and go and yet the area is very sought after.
Oh c'mon now, are you serious with this question? Everyone who has lived in the East Bay knows that Piedmont is a fortress insulated against Oakland. Trying to imply that Piedmont is Oakland is simply being dishonest or ignorant of the truth.

First off, Piedmont is NOT Oakland. Let's say it again, so that people new to City Data understand it, Piedmont is NOT Oakland. It's a small affluent city completely landlocked inside of Oakland, but it is a separate entity by zoning. They have their own city council, their own city services as well.

It has its own police services that is very well funded (unlike Oakland PD), and there de facto purpose to keep the riff-raff from Oakland out (which they are very good at doing). Try driving into Piedmont at midnight and see what happens if you loiter for more than an hour, you will be stopped by police, 9 times out of 10.

Additionally, the Piedmont council has also zoned over 98% of the city for residential use, meaning there isn't a lot of reason for non-Piedmont residents to enter the city. This, along with a vigilant (and well funded) police department keeps the criminal element from Oakland out.

The median household income of the city is around $135,000, and in turn, the housing is not very affordable for most of the "thug and gangsta" crowd.

That's THREE effective barriers that seperate Piedmont from Oakland.
 
Old 06-27-2010, 11:18 AM
 
13,128 posts, read 23,424,760 times
Reputation: 7384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fantastic View Post
If they can afford it, nearby North Berkeley/Berkeley is much safer, and maintains the "urbanity" many seek, but without the violent crime.


Again that's personal opinion based on your own tolerance. We can only use the statistics to really have an unbiased discussion because for every "I love my 2 bedroom shack in Oakland" post, you will find people who simply can't stand Oakland for various reasons.



Oh c'mon now, are you serious with this question? Everyone who has lived in the East Bay knows that Piedmont is a fortress insulated against Oakland. Trying to imply that Piedmont is Oakland is simply being dishonest or ignorant of the truth.

First off, Piedmont is NOT Oakland. Let's say it again, so that people new to City Data understand it, Piedmont is NOT Oakland. It's a small affluent city completely landlocked inside of Oakland, but it is a separate entity by zoning. They have their own city council, their own city services as well.

It has its own police services that is very well funded (unlike Oakland PD), and there de facto purpose to keep the riff-raff from Oakland out (which they are very good at doing). Try driving into Piedmont at midnight and see what happens if you loiter for more than an hour, you will be stopped by police, 9 times out of 10.

Additionally, the Piedmont council has also zoned over 98% of the city for residential use, meaning there isn't a lot of reason for non-Piedmont residents to enter the city. This, along with a vigilant (and well funded) police department keeps the criminal element from Oakland out.

The median household income of the city is around $135,000, and in turn, the housing is not very affordable for most of the "thug and gangsta" crowd.

That's THREE effective barriers that seperate Piedmont from Oakland.
Preconceived notions don't necessarily equate reality... I've shattered many a co-workers conceptions of my city by just inviting them to my home.

I know it's hard to believe... there are lifelong Bay Area residents whose Oakland experiences are limited to the Coliseum, Jury Duty or the Oakland Airport... and there's a lot more to Oakland... some of my favorite Oakland places are the Dunsmuir House, Lake Merrit and the shore line trail...

As to Piedmont... the residents of the "Insulated Fortress" called Piedmont have NO libraries. Piedmont residents have Oakland Library Cards, which the city of Piedmont furnishes... so much for the insulated theory.

Don't forget... Oakland has zoning too... R-10 zoning reguires 25,000 square feet minimum lot size per home... (More than a 1/2 acre)

OPD officers are some of the highest paid in the country and the majority of Piedmont Officers receive their training at the Oakland academy.

I personally couldn't live in Berkeley proper... the politics make even Oakland look conservative.

Anyone that purports Oakland in only one light isn't honest.

Last edited by Ultrarunner; 06-27-2010 at 11:32 AM..
 
Old 06-28-2010, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Mission Viejo, CA / San Rafael, CA
2,352 posts, read 2,753,325 times
Reputation: 510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
Preconceived notions don't necessarily equate reality... I've shattered many a co-workers conceptions of my city by just inviting them to my home.

I know it's hard to believe... there are lifelong Bay Area residents whose Oakland experiences are limited to the Coliseum, Jury Duty or the Oakland Airport... and there's a lot more to Oakland... some of my favorite Oakland places are the Dunsmuir House, Lake Merrit and the shore line trail...
Look, I know you're somewhat emotional because of what you perceive as an "attack" on your beloved city. Trust me when I say I have no reason to belittle Oakland. Oakland has problems, and in some instances it has benefits. I've always stated it depends on the type of person you are. But we do know these facts:

- Oakland has extremely high violent crime.
- Oakland is facing a huge budget deficit.
- Oakland is losing a big chunk of its Police Force
- The Average "Employed" Oakland Resident only makes around $35,000.
- Unemployment in Oakland is around 17%.
- 84% of Oakland's "Employed" cannot afford a single family resident in the city (hench no thriving middle-class).
- Oakland Public Schooling is atrocious (52% dropout rate).

These are facts, backed by statistic from the FBI, Census Bureau, and the California Comptroller's Office.

These also happen to be facts that FAMILIES care most about when looking for a place to live (I've been selling real estate for a very long time to this demographic).

So if you want to have a useful discussion along THESE lines, then I'm open to it. Otherwise if you're going to keep taking the route of "me, my uncle, and my best friend's friend saw this", then we can't really have a discussion based in reality and the facts.

Quote:
As to Piedmont... the residents of the "Insulated Fortress" called Piedmont have NO libraries. Piedmont residents have Oakland Library Cards, which the city of Piedmont furnishes... so much for the insulated theory.
Again, Piedmont is NOT Oakland. Repeat, Piedmont is NOT Oakland. They are two separate entities. Northern Anaheim residents have to visit Placentia Libraries in SoCal, it doesn't mean the two cities are one. It's just the a way the two cities decided to effectively save money on their budgets. But no one would mistake Anaheim for Placentia in SoCal, nor would anyone mistake Piedmont for Oakland. That's simply misleading, and an outright falsehood.

Also of course Piedmont residents would go to Oakland to use their libraries. Piedmont is almost entirely residential, they don't have the land to turn into public institutions. Also, because of my next point...

Piedmont residents generally don't want Oakland residents hanging out in Piedmont. How can you explain Piedmont being zoned over 98% residential by the city council? Here, I'll help you: It's so people who don't live in Piedmont have NO reason to visit the city.

Again, if you think Piedmont doesn't want to be isolated from Oakland residents, I challenge you to drive into Piedmont after 11PM, and loiter for at least 30 minutes on any random street. You will be talked to by Piedmont Police and asked to leave if you have no business there. Seriously, try it.

Quote:
I personally couldn't live in Berkeley proper... the politics make even Oakland look conservative.
That's your opinion, and based on your needs, probably true. That being said, Berkeley is much safer, and has better public schools, and much more prevalent middle-class (i.e - It's middle-class family friendly unlike Oakland).
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