02-02-2011, 06:02 PM
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My wife and I are suddenly at odds and it boils down to our disagreement over whether we should (can) buy a house or continue renting.
Here are the finances:
Combined gross annual: @ $150k
Down payment: $50k
Considering homes in the $400-500k range
IR = 5.25%
Based on the numbers and including PMI, Insurance, and Taxes we'd likely owe about $3,300/mos (not including maintenance/upkeep which I estmate at about $4k/yr)
We have the following current mos. payments:
Car = $360.30
Daycare = $1,300
Rent = $2,000
We live in SSF, in a rented 2BR/1BA house that has mold issues. We're now month to month so we have flexibility to leave.
We've been pre-qualified for a loan and the IR of 5.25 comes from our mortgage broker.
We have been looking in the East Bay (Berkeley, Glenview, Dimond, Albany) and based on what we've seen the prospects aren't that good.
In addition, the cost of renting a house in a better neighborhood (and a higher quality home) is about half the cost of buying.
I don't want to be tied to a huge mortgage that ties up all our money - every dime we've saved would be used for down payment/closing costs. I don't think that's a wise move for our family.
My wife has basically said she refuses to move again unless it's to a home we own. We have a 2 yo boy so we want to make sure we live in an area with good public schools.
Since the bank and our RE agent have told us we can afford a loan of up to $550,000, my wife is convinced that we can pay as much as $3,700 a month for a house. I disagree, I think we can pay it, but it will pretty much hogtie us and then god forbid anything happen because we will no longer have any money saved or the ability to save any money.
Am I being over-protective of our finances, or is now the time to put all our money into a home purchase?
Sorry for the long post but I can't even talk about the idea of waiting this thing out a bit while prices are still liable to fall without my wife crumbling to tears.
02-02-2011, 06:19 PM
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Reputation: 2580
sorry, dude. a mother with a 2 year old wants her own home. i don't think this can be a purely economical descicion if you want a happy home life.
02-02-2011, 06:20 PM
Location: Oakland, CA
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Reputation: 28563
1. I vote for paying way less than what your RE tells you you can afford
2. Albany is a great town to raise a family, and has good schools. Housing options for your budget are slim
3. Dimond is pretty popular with families and I know quite a few happy ones there
If it was my money right this second, I'd hold off. The prices for the type of home you are looking for are still way over priced compared to the cost to rent them. Here's my pitch for
Housing Market News , they have a calculator to help you figure it out. If the rent is half the mortgage, it is too expensive.
I think it is is a good time to by a condo in many parts of Oakland at the moment, but I am not so sure it is a great time to buy a new house. If you are putting every penny you have saved into your down payment, you aren't ready to buy. I also think you should pick a mortgage that is doable with 1.5 of you working -- just in case one of you loses income. Just my two cents.
02-02-2011, 06:44 PM
Location: San Leandro
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Reputation: 3248
What your california real estate agent tells you can afford and what you know you can afford are often two completely different things.
02-02-2011, 06:47 PM
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I don't know what you have in savings, or how your health insurance coverage is, or how much you have saved up for retirement. But it really sounds like you can't afford to buy yet.
You have a child. If anything were to happen to you, your wife, or your son - medically or economically, you would need to have a substantial cushion of savings in order to keep afloat. Blowing all your savings on a down payment for a home is irresponsible - you should be keeping several months, if not a year's worth of salary somewhere easily accessible as emergency savings - which is that $50K right there. If you already have emergency money saved, then ignore this.
But you also need to consider that the Bay Area is expensive and that housing prices are probably not going to drop that much more. I am moving to SF and am considering rent vs. buy as well. I also have small children. Currently, I live in NYC, also an area where it is cheaper to rent than buy. And that is what we do right now, because renting allows us to do exactly what you are saying - have a nicer home in a nicer neighborhood for the kids. We will probably do the same in SF for some time.
I think, if you really don't have any savings aside from this down payment, you need to stash that $50K in a savings account for emergencies only, and then start saving again for a down payment with the extra money you would be putting towards a mortgage. That way you can play pretend - you can take $3700 a month, pay $2500 (or whatever) towards rent, and then take the other $1200 (or whatever) and stash it in your down payment savings. That way you will actually see if you can live paying $3700 a month in mortgage, and in the meantime will be stashing cash for a down payment (or, if you already have emergency money, ADD to that $50K to get your down payment closer to 20%).
Good luck!
02-02-2011, 07:50 PM
Location: South Korea
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Reputation: 2958
Frankly I think people fetishize buying a house too much, especially in the Bay Area which is still one of the few parts of the US where it's cheaper to rent a house than if you bought that exact same house. You are finding this out first hand but there are a lot of articles about this like this one:
It's still better to rent than buy in the Bay Area : On The Block - Real Estate
If you buy a house you have to deal with interest, taxes, and you're on the hook for repairs. Yes one day you'll pay it off but that's not for 30 years for most people and you'd still be paying taxes.
Now if you were somewhere like Miami where it's actually cheaper to buy than to rent, then yes by all means go for it. But somewhere like the Bay Area I think it's just too expensive, and prices aren't dropping I don't think.
If you want to live somewhere fairly convenient with good schools and in a nice house, then renting is fairly doable, but you want to buy then these types of places are expensive. Some people move places like Oakland or Pittsburg that don't have great schools but do have cheap houses (I saw a two story one in Pittsburg recently for $190,000) or they move to places really far away like Tracy or Modesto but that means 4 to 6 hours of commuting a day.
Frankly if just owning a house is more important than everything else in your lives, I'd move to a different region of the US where it's cheaper to get a house compared to average salaries. Seems like you get it but I don't think your wife does. Spending twice as much to buy than to rent the exact same place is ridiculous. If it was around a 10% or so difference I'd think about it because at least you could bank on maybe making more in the future and the house appreciating, but 50% is too much for those factors to overcome.
The Bay Area is a great place to live if you're young but it's just not that great for people with young kids who aren't millionaires.
02-02-2011, 09:12 PM
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I think 150k income is a good income to buy a 400-500k home, but your other figures suggest you both aren't quite ready to buy a house in that range. A 50k down payment is not enough. You should have 20% down payment in this market (80-100k) + a good amount of money as a cushion that isn't towards your down payment (e.g. extra 30k at least). There is also factoring daycare cost and your extra debt.
Also, like another poster suggested, it is wise to plan living on 1 income...If you can't afford your mortgage on either your wife's or your income only, I'd consider buying someplace where you can afford a house on one income (even if both of you plan to work indefinitely)...It comes with a lot of peace of mind knowing you can afford your home on 1 income if necessary. You'll feel less like a slave to your mortgage knowing you can comfortably afford it. You don't need that added stress of barely making it or living paycheck-to-paycheck.
I'd say, pay off your extra debt--sell and buy a cheaper car you can pay cash for and keep saving. You need that 20% down payment at least and extra cushion money. If your wife is at all money-savvy she will need to come to terms with planning ahead in order to get what she really wants in the future.
02-03-2011, 12:05 AM
4 posts, read
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Thank you all for your thoughtful feedback. I'm starting to feel that my tireless campaigning for continuing to rent is finally paying off. My wife actually looked at some available rentals with me tonight and she didn't cringe or cry.
She still holds hope that we can own our home here in the Bay Area but I think she's coming around to the idea that we don't win a prize for being the next one to buy a house.
Ultimately it would be irresponsible of us to selectively put ourselves in possible financial straits in order to appease an emotional desire or want. Maybe she's realized this.
Will keep you posted on how things play out, but if I could act alone I would rent a house in the area we'd like to buy and plan on staying there for at least a year. That way we can still save some dough while getting better acquainted with the area.
I really don't know how likely a home purchase is for us in the next 12+mos, we really need more money for a down payment and must have sufficient rainy day cash on hand too. That is simply not the case currently.
02-03-2011, 07:52 AM
Location: Police State
1,472 posts, read
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Reputation: 1232
Why buy now? You're still going to be overpaying. Cheaply renting is still the way to go for now.
02-03-2011, 07:58 AM
Location: Texas
44,254 posts, read
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Reputation: 73932
Quote:
Originally Posted by
StandingRoomOnly
I think 150k income is a good income to buy a 400-500k home, but your other figures suggest you both aren't quite ready to buy a house in that range. .
I disagree completely. No way in heck would I buy a $500k home on $150k income, ESPECIALLY in tax-heavy Cali and ESPECIALLY since they don't even have 20% down.
The realtors and loan people are greedy so-and-so's...I wouldn't trust a damn thing they say.
I don't understand why the compromise with this guy and his wife isn't just to buy a cheaper house. May not be the 'ideal' area, but they have to compromise somewhere. BOTH of them.
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Most Common Occupations - Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Construction and extraction occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)