How easy (or hard) is it for new transplants to make friends in SF / East Bay? (San Jose: apartment complex, house)
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From my experience the people in the SJ/SV area are more friendly than SF. The farther you get from SF the friendlier the people seem to be. The friendliest people I have encountered in the Bay Area were on trips to Vacaville and Livermore.
After living in SF for 6 years I have zero friends here. In comparison after only a few months in the NJ/NYC area I had a few good friends and knew most of the neighbors on our street. Our next door neighbor in NJ even brought over a cooked lunch for my son on the day we moved out. In Atlanta after 6 years I had tons of friends and literally knew hundreds of people. In Orange County I had many good friends,we helped each other out a lot and I still keep in contact with some of them.
The neighbors in SF are especially unfriendly and half of them will ignore you if you say hello or wave. I was at first shocked by this behavior since everywhere else I lived the people were much more friendly. I was wondering what was going on? I found others have had similar experiences as posted here:
"Everyone has pretty much retreated psychologically. Cold, frosty, snobbish, indifferent, insular ...... The only city in the country where a greeting is ignored, a friendly smile returned with averted eye contact, small talk impatiently met with sarcasm."
Now I would not have believed this if I had not experienced it myself on a daily basis in SF. I am looking forward to moving out of here at the first available opportunity. I do not recommend moving here unless it is a must for job purposes.
I have lived in SF for 25 years, first as a law student, and then as a married and single dad. I find the above comments to be quite accurate ... I am constantly stunned by how blatantly SF people blatantly shun even eye contact. I really don't understand what the cause of that is ... they act as if even acknowledging your proximity is painful or beneath them. I have found it basically impossible to make friends in SF without an organizing larger purpose, so that my experience as a single guy now is pretty depressing compared to when I met folks who shared my primary goals (student, parent) on a routine basis. SF is very cliquish, rendering it extremely difficult to establish a friendship that grows and deepens over time. You can make superficial connections through the various online resources (Yelp, Meetup, etc.), but the "friendships" rarely outlast involvement with the group and people are generally not interested in getting together outside of the group context. My best guess as to the cause of this is that there are a lot of people who come to SF just for the experience of living here without intending to actually form lasting connections, which means there are a lot of players and others who mainly want to use other people until it's time to leave. And the folks who stay are often self-congratulatory and see themselves as better than most of the U.S. population. (South Park nails this aspect of SF very accurately in its "Smug Alert" episode.) SF is also a haven for people who are marginalized by society as a whole and run-of-the-mill druggies, which means that you have a higher-than-average quota of psychologically fractured people who are basically unable to connect with other people other than superficially.
I had a lot booze-induced fun when I came here for law school, and I also felt like there was a community when I was married with kid. Now ... not so much.
So, in conclusion, if you want to come here to have some booze-induced fun (I saw a pretty young thing puking into the gutter on a recent week-night evening while I waited for my bus in the financial district to take me home) or you are satisfied with being "friends" with people on Facebook or throughout the duration of a Meetup group (until it dies when the novelty wears off), live in SF. Otherwise I would not move to SF (or Marin, where i have also lived).
(About 10 years ago I was chatting with a female lawyer I worked with who came from Appleton, WI. Somehow the subject of Bay Area people came up and she, without prompting, mentioned how difficult it was to meet people here (and she is an attractive and sharp lady). She said that people here don't know how to have conversations, like in Wisconsin. Her theory was that people there had to be stuck indoors together for many months and had to learn to get along. The opposite trend seems to prevail here.)
Thank you for all the thoughtful responses so far.
After reading some of these, I feel I should clarify: I do understand some of the basics i.e. that you need to put yourself out there, you need to be proactive in planning / organizing social events, get involved, volunteer for a cause you feel strongly about, etc. All good advice, and I understand too that, to some degree, these social challenges for newcomers could apply to ANY major metro in the U.S., especially for transplants who are older than average (i.e. mid-30's and beyond). BUT...what I'm really looking for, once you factor out all the generalities and the "here's what you should do" stuff, is to learn the actual experiences that people (especially other tranplants) have had in this area, specific to the SF / OAK / East Bay experience.
Even though I'll go along with the "people are pretty much the same wherever you go" addage to some degree, I also do believe that each place, each city tends to have its own "personality" and embedded socio-cultural norms (i.e. some more welcoming of new arrivals, others not so much) and that's what I'm trying to get my mind around specifically for the northern half of the Bay Area. Our friends in the South Bay are already covering this in a current thread on the SJ forum, even though those responses are a bit depressing.
Along those lines:
Quote:
Originally Posted by capoeira
...After living in SF for 6 years I have zero friends here...The neighbors in SF are especially unfriendly and half of them will ignore you if you say hello or wave. I was at first shocked by this behavior since everywhere else I lived the people were much more friendly. I was wondering what was going on? I found others have had similar experiences as posted here:
"Everyone has pretty much retreated psychologically. Cold, frosty, snobbish, indifferent, insular ...... The only city in the country where a greeting is ignored, a friendly smile returned with averted eye contact, small talk impatiently met with sarcasm."
Now I would not have believed this if I had not experienced it myself on a daily basis in SF. I am looking forward to moving out of here at the first available opportunity. I do not recommend moving here unless it is a must for job purposes.
...and...
Quote:
Originally Posted by legal_eagle
I have lived in SF for 25 years, first as a law student, and then as a married and single dad. I find the above comments to be quite accurate ... I am constantly stunned by how blatantly SF people blatantly shun even eye contact. I really don't understand what the cause of that is ... they act as if even acknowledging your proximity is painful or beneath them. I have found it basically impossible to make friends in SF without an organizing larger purpose, so that my experience as a single guy now is pretty depressing compared to when I met folks who shared my primary goals (student, parent) on a routine basis. SF is very cliquish, rendering it extremely difficult to establish a friendship that grows and deepens over time. You can make superficial connections through the various online resources (Yelp, Meetup, etc.), but the "friendships" rarely outlast involvement with the group and people are generally not interested in getting together outside of the group context. My best guess as to the cause of this is that there are a lot of people who come to SF just for the experience of living here without intending to actually form lasting connections, which means there are a lot of players and others who mainly want to use other people until it's time to leave. And the folks who stay are often self-congratulatory and see themselves as better than most of the U.S. population. (South Park nails this aspect of SF very accurately in its "Smug Alert" episode.) SF is also a haven for people who are marginalized by society as a whole and run-of-the-mill druggies, which means that you have a higher-than-average quota of psychologically fractured people who are basically unable to connect with other people other than superficially.
Thanks guys for your honest answers, but wow...a little scary, to say the least. I've noticed the thing that you both have in common in that you're describing living in San Francisco...the City. Is that really the typical experience there? If so, it's hard to believe that people would pay so much $ to live in a place with such a miserable environment for real social connections. OR...maybe the people that live in the City that are happy already have their social circles / cliques set, and aren't nearly as socially "needy" as us transplants? OR...maybe most of the people living in the City are just really into their careers and financial success, and not as concerned about their social connections (except those what will advance their careers)? IDK...just trying to figure it out still.
So I have to ask...is this kind of (lousy) experience unique to the City, or does this apply also to places like Oakland / Berkeley / Outer East Bay? Marin? Upper Peninsula? So far, the worst I've heard is from folks living in SF, which personally I wasn't leaning towards anyway.
I will say the part above about people not necessarily returning the greetings from random passerbys on the streets doesn't really bother me. It's totally understandable that people in the middle of their everyday stuff are just busy and have their mind on other things etc...and it can be a little annoying at times to be interrupted by a (albeit well-intended) stranger when your just walking to get your morning coffee, probably running late for a meeting. The bigger deal is when you are actually in social situations, interest groups, meet-ups, etc...and people aren't really open to making real connections, only superficial ones.
Oh, and legal_eagle, to your point...I'm definitely not just looking for "booze-induced fun". I'm past that point in my life...I've had my hard partying days and enjoyed them thoroughly (at least from what I remember). I am looking for a place that I can put down roots where I actually want to live (as in sunny yet cool climate, culture, outdoors opportunites - esp. skiing & hiking, career opps, progressive mindsets, tolerant attitudes, urbane, intelligent and ecologically-minded residents...and so on...in other words - the freaking Bay Area! BUT...this difficult social environment I'm hearing about for people who aren't already well-established is very offputting...maybe not a deal-breaker, but definitely something to consider before loading up the moving van for the 2000-mile journey.
OK, sorry for the novel...carry on
Last edited by OakAve2OakLand; 07-10-2011 at 05:02 PM..
Again, people in any urban area will avoid eye contact. That is a universal thing if you are in a busy urban environment, people just go about their lives and don't really want to deal with strangers. You get used to it.
And people in suburban areas can be just as cold about talking to strangers. I grew up in suburban south Florida and nobody there talks to their neighbors. My parents know a few people in their neighborhood but considering they've been in the same house for 20 years it's just a handful of people.
Again, people in any urban area will avoid eye contact. That is a universal thing if you are in a busy urban environment, people just go about their lives and don't really want to deal with strangers. You get used to it.
And people in suburban areas can be just as cold about talking to strangers. I grew up in suburban south Florida and nobody there talks to their neighbors. My parents know a few people in their neighborhood but considering they've been in the same house for 20 years it's just a handful of people.
While your first point is true, you have downplayed what goes on here. It's not merely a matter of diffidence due to close proximity, like when you are standing cheek-to-jowl waiting for a subway. There's an aggressive quality to the SF snobbery. For example, if your path is bound to cross someone else's, the neighborly thing to do would be to at least acknowledge the other person's presence by making eye contact, followed by one person yielding the right of way. SF people, on the other hand, refuse to acknowledge you and simply barrel forward hoping that you will get out of their way. I have not experienced this sort of behavior in any other U.S. urban area, probably because the people in those areas are not as full of themselves as the folks here tend to be.
Jeez. It sounds just miserable. (All the cold, smug, awkward behavior, i.e.) I'm hearing descriptions of the sort of altercations that happen only once a month (or once every six months) in NYC, Austin, London or Stockholm - unless you go looking for them, then of course you'll have no problem finding them in an instant. Are these irksome exchanges happening three or four times a day for the average Joe in SF?
I'm getting spooked. (I'm also having a hard time accepting that the majority of people are generally so unpleasant.) I've been through there and never seen it, and my friends who live out there just say, "I dunno," when I mention it.
Last edited by potrerocurious; 07-10-2011 at 05:11 PM..
Again, people in any urban area will avoid eye contact. That is a universal thing if you are in a busy urban environment, people just go about their lives and don't really want to deal with strangers. You get used to it.
Copy that. I had already edited my post above to include this idea, even before I read this post.
Nobody wants to be (or deal with) Crocodile Dundee on the streets of Manhattan.
** The questions being: Do the above characterizations and challenges apply also to SF / OAK / East Bay, as they seem to for SJ/SV? Any recent transplants (maybe < 5-7 years) that can share your experiences on this matter? Any other ideas for Bay Area newbies to establish real connections / friendships, outside of work or school? Oak2Oak
I will be honest with you - my husband and I are 31 and have been here for 6 years. We've both had numerous jobs during that time in the legal and music fields. We live in Marin. We have basically made no lasting friendships with anyone from this area. The people we know are all from the east coast, and everything is very spread out so most of the people we know are an hour away. We see our friends maybe once a month, but its nearly impossible to meet for coffee or grab a beer after work.
We have tried meetup groups, and I was part of a book group in the SF for about a year. We have a dog and are out and about all the time. We rockclimb, hike, surf, run, etc. You'd think we would fit right in!
We both came from the east coast and left our families and many friends. I can honestly say that as a whole, Californians in this part of the state are friendly enough but not interested in bringing any new people into their circles, either because they a) don't have time for more friends, or b) you don't live close enough to be convenient. We have "almost" made friends, but after they decline our invites a couple times, we give up. When you start to feel like a stalker, enough is enough!
I'm sorry to paint a sad scene for you - we are relocating in the near future due to the fact that we have no community or tightly knit circle of friends after so many years here. Everyone is like "have a kid!" Then you'll make friends! I think that is a totally messed up outlook on life.
I think its important to know that making friends here could be difficult. If you get in with the right people, it could be easy. You never know. Marin is beautiful, but everyone is older or has kids. Wish we had looked more into that before we moved here! I'd head for the East Bay - its young and hip with alot going on. Good Luck!
oh BTW - neighbors in this area keep to themselves. We live in a nice apartment building in a beautiful area with bike paths, etc. Our building has 12 units. We don't know anyones' names. When we moved in 2+ years ago, we were barely acknowledged. We tried being friendly, but gave up.
I do think that the general attitude is a little cold, although not as extreme as other have noted above. But, we don't live in city. I miss the New England attitude and can't get back there fast enough!
I will be honest with you - my husband and I are 31 and have been here for 6 years. We've both had numerous jobs during that time in the legal and music fields. We live in Marin. We have basically made no lasting friendships with anyone from this area. The people we know are all from the east coast, and everything is very spread out so most of the people we know are an hour away. We see our friends maybe once a month, but its nearly impossible to meet for coffee or grab a beer after work.
We have tried meetup groups, and I was part of a book group in the SF for about a year. We have a dog and are out and about all the time. We rockclimb, hike, surf, run, etc. You'd think we would fit right in!
We both came from the east coast and left our families and many friends. I can honestly say that as a whole, Californians in this part of the state are friendly enough but not interested in bringing any new people into their circles, either because they a) don't have time for more friends, or b) you don't live close enough to be convenient. We have "almost" made friends, but after they decline our invites a couple times, we give up. When you start to feel like a stalker, enough is enough!
I'm sorry to paint a sad scene for you - we are relocating in the near future due to the fact that we have no community or tightly knit circle of friends after so many years here. Everyone is like "have a kid!" Then you'll make friends! I think that is a totally messed up outlook on life.
I think its important to know that making friends here could be difficult. If you get in with the right people, it could be easy. You never know. Marin is beautiful, but everyone is older or has kids. Wish we had looked more into that before we moved here! I'd head for the East Bay - its young and hip with alot going on. Good Luck!
Thanks, baychic, for your insights.
It seems that this thread is touching a nerve, even for folks who have been here a while...
I've known for a while now that (generally speaking) Marin is a family-dominated enclave of (typically) wealthy suburbanites, and not really for singles (even older ones like myself) or for those looking for a strong sense of community. For those reasons, it never really rose to the top of my list.
Maybe you and your husband would be happier in a place where more people are in your situation and share your mindset. Maybe then at least, your reason #2 above (don't live close enough to be convenient) will go away. It sounds like you are thinking about relocating...are you talking about going to another community in the Bay Area, or moving away from the area altogether?
And yes, I did focus in on the East Bay a while back...but now it's almost sounding like it's from a process of elimination.
So I have to ask...is this kind of (lousy) experience unique to the City, or does this apply also to places like Oakland / Berkeley / Outer East Bay? Marin? Upper Peninsula? So far, the worst I've heard is from folks living in SF, which personally I wasn't leaning towards anyway.
You have already came to conclusions about a place, based purely on opinions of individuals who obviously have/had issues with living in SF. People with an ax to grind tend to be more vocal then those who are content.
Why not wait after you have at least visited and form you own conclusions (though it seems far too tainted to be very objective)?
There are plenty of people who live in SF, who likes living here myself included. I am a transplant from another country (where I also went to school), and have many close friends, that YES, I met them because they are/were work colleagues. But I acknowledge that it's part of MY personality to make friends with people that I spend a lot of time with (work colleagues, class mates etc). When I make friends, they are usually extremely good friends, and friends for life. I rarely have friendly acquaintances. I do not blame lack of friends outside these circles on my geographical location, I blame it on my own lack of interaction in other circles. The problem would exist regardless of where I live.
I personally have not encountered the snobbery mentioned by other posters. I have friendly conversations with strangers, both residents and visitors. I get friendly hellos and smiles from my neighbors, though I don't know them. I get compliments from strangers (and not all are from skivvy old dudes trying to pick me up). How one carries oneself, determines how other people interacts with them....it's not a SF or bay area specific trait.
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BUT...this difficult social environment I'm hearing about for people who aren't already well-established is very offputting...maybe not a deal-breaker, but definitely something to consider before loading up the moving van for the 2000-mile journey.
