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Well, I'm sorry, I had no idea that my brief anecdote on my past was going to earn the ire of an unpleasantly aggressive fanatic. It wasn't a matter of me sneakily withholding important data, it was more that I had no idea you were such a... yeah.
Blah blah blah deceit, blah blah blah sneaky, get over yourself.
Yeah I read that the first time around. I dig the letters.
You got me there, I guess; I felt it was sh*t that I was going to be excluded from a program that was going to start for the year, still had spaces available that were not being filled by a single student of any race, but was already "filled" with white people.
My being admitted to the program was not mutually exclusive of a kid of minority status being edged out. Not that I imagine this would matter to you. Based on your last couple posts, I wonder if you'd like to see kids who were in my position stuck there as a matter of righting historical wrongs.
I'm 75% white, and we moved from a state where racial quotas were illegal; my parents had always registered me as "white" because it was the majority of my racial composition and so it was irrelevant. I do, indeed, identify primarily as Caucasian, which I suspect that you can weigh in on as well. Regardless: my racial composition classified me as a minority according to the school district's very own laws. What if a black kid's parent had accidentally checked "white" on a form and they were shut out from attending that school despite the fact that they were demonstrably not white per the school's own regulations?
They were always allowed to be a part of it. My parents didn't realize the ramifications until the paperwork was done and they were told that I was denied entrance to the school based on race.
Yep! And according to the (black Puerto Rican) district psychiatrist who administered my IQ, comprehension, and cognitive tests, I was included in this strata
Again, there were still spaces in the class.
The affluent neighborhood in question was on the other end of town. The school was immediately adjacent to public housing. We didn't have the money to live there (again... poverty line).
Nope, not the case at all. I like how you assume this, though.
Were the majority of the kids in the classroom white or not? Lets keep it simple since you want to play games.
http://www.dahlcares.com/images/Batesville%20Pioneer%20Oak%20Cremation%20Casket.jp g (broken link)
I'm done here. Have fun w/ your views .. I am sure they have served you well in life. In closing, I will paste words from null from a similar thread in the main California forum ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo
tickyul -- I cannot make the point much clearer, myself: I know all about the horrors of Vietnam ... I was there, and participated in them ... in fact, I am combat disabled ... I know a very great deal about pain and horror ... and that said, I had no trouble coming home and repatriating, either ... none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the black American experience. People all around the world have always experienced horrors of war and accidents and rapes and diseases. Being hit while riding one's bicycle, by a car driven by a drunk may result in excruciating pain and disability, if not death ... the victim may suffer PTSD from the single experience, complete with life-long nightmares ... and similar for a victim of rape ... or soldiers or families caught in combat. None of that relates to the black American experience of being deliberately and systematically isolated from their culture and language and homeland, and then being cast and treated as 2-legged livestock, forced into an artificial culture of extreme poverty and ignorance created by their oppressors, and used as expendable chattel -- repetitively for successive generations over hundreds of years. Then, when finally "freed", given absolutely nothing to move forward with while being entirely disconnected from any culture except the culture of poverty and ignorance of the plantations. The view of blacks as inferiors, of no greater intelligence or worth than expendable livestock, held by generational traditions of whites, was then carried forward until the era of the civil rights movement -- which movement I was raised in with very direct and at times literally life-threatening intimacy.
You cannot apparently grasp the meaning of living as a fully capable human who is followed every time you walk into a store -- because you are automatically profiled as a likely thief by virtue of nothing more than the color of your skin. Or a practically infinite number of other impositions on your freedom and personal dignity. But this is what AA and black pride address, necessarily and importantly. The promise of our culture and great country is dishonored by the hypocrisy of our history -- unless we actively engage a corrective process.
If you won't listen to a black American explain these things, then consider the issue from the perspective of a white American veteran of both war in Asia and civil rights at home.
I'm done here. Have fun w/ your views .. I am sure they have served you well in life. In closing, I will paste words from null from a similar thread in the main California forum ..
Cheers mate.
The point of your post wasn't being debated so much as the presentation (i.e. the unnecessary vitriol)... I think 415s2k is aware that there's a greater need for enrichment programs in the black community than in the white community. 415 has a completely valid point though that under-served youth in general - even under-served white youth - also have a great need for accessible enrichment programs that affluent whites often dominate. What I don't understand in your argument is why you chose to downplay the impact of socio-economics... black students with the greatest need for enrichment programs tend to be of a lower socio-economic background, which in itself is directly tied to the racist restriction of black upward mobility in the past and arguably the present. While whites have a comparatively easy path to climbing the socio-economic food chain, it is still not easy starting at the bottom, and especially not at the public education level. Will a poor white student face as much adversity in reaching their goals as a poor - or even middle class - black student in the American public education system and beyond? No. There are plenty of ways to make that point, though, without resorting to thinly veiled condescension, and rudely stated condescension at that.
The point of your post wasn't being debated so much as the presentation (i.e. the unnecessary vitriol)... I think 415s2k is aware that there's a greater need for enrichment programs in the black community than in the white community. 415 has a completely valid point though that under-served youth in general - even under-served white youth - also have a great need for accessible enrichment programs that affluent whites often dominate. What I don't understand in your argument is why you chose to downplay the impact of socio-economics... black students with the greatest need for enrichment programs tend to be of a lower socio-economic background, which in itself is directly tied to the racist restriction of black upward mobility in the past and arguably the present. While whites have a comparatively easy path to climbing the socio-economic food chain, it is still not easy starting at the bottom, and especially not at the public education level. Will a poor white student face as much adversity in reaching their goals as a poor - or even middle class - black student in the American public education system and beyond? No. There are plenty of ways to make that point, though, without resorting to thinly veiled condescension, and rudely stated condescension at that.
That is exactly the point I was trying to illustrate with yeahthatguy in the other thread, but to no avail.
I guess I wasn't clear enough in saying that continuing the affirmative action, which promotes equal outcomes, is working on the wrong side of the system.
A few posts someone mentioned the "twice as good" problem for African-Americans. This is still a problem, and will be until we find a way to address the issue. My turn for a personal story. I moved away from CA to the South when I was 12. When it was time to enroll in classes, my parents requested enrollment in "honors" classes to match where I was at my previous school. The school district said, we'll need a transcript/standardized test results in order to proceed. My parents provided this info, and then the school district said "we'll also need to give your daughter an IQ test before we can proceed. This test is offered in 6 weeks." They also implied that the documentation provided by my parents was invalid.
At this point my parents vetoed that request and said we have provided sufficient documentation that meets your requirements. Please go ahead and approve her admission to the honors classes so she doesn't start 2 months behind and transfer in the middle of the semester. It took a week or two with aggressive action by my parents, and it worked out. I continued on my merry way in honors classes.
There were a few other white kids who moved from out of state who faced no similar roadblocks or requests.
From 7th to 10th grade I was the only African-American in any of my honors classes. There were many other students that were equally qualified, but unfortunately since they were long time community residents, they did not feel comfortable fighting the status quo in this situation. I didn't find other black classmates until late in high school. And we all know how important tracking is to making sure you have the prerequisites for college admissions. I can think of 10 other people in my class that should have also been tracked for "college prep" that weren't. This obviously happens all over the U.S. Why isn't it fair to take this into consideration for college admissions? Most minorities are starting 2 steps behind before they even get started from wither lowered expectations or outright discrimination.
That is exactly the point I was trying to illustrate with yeahthatguy in the other thread, but to no avail.
I guess I wasn't clear enough in saying that continuing the affirmative action, which promotes equal outcomes, is working on the wrong side of the system.
And how is that?
Affirmative action is about creating equal access and opportunities. It was never intended as a silver bullet to solve all problems of social and economic inequality, but is just one of the tools. AA can help qualified individuals get their foot in the door, but the rest is up to them. Even so, they have to work "twice as hard" to get ahead.
I'm more astonished at the general level of ignorance that the BCR kids are showing with their bake sale rather than being offended by them. Frequently poor people, and disproportionately people of color, pay more for many goods and services than people in affluent suburbs. Ever hear of the ghetto tax?
Examples:
1) Groceries - one pays more at the inner city bodega than at the Safeway in Pleasanton for equivalent products. There is also less availability of fresh produce in the inner city. This is a contributor to higher rates of childhood obesity in low income groups.
2) Finance and Banking - Shortage of banking services in low income areas. Banks will often charge people with low balances and waive fees for people with high balances. Or those who can't get bank accounts go to check cashing services which are pretty darned usurious with their high fees. Higher interest rates are charged for minority loan applicants than for whites in general.
Frankly, I wished the BCR kids had priced the baked goods more for minority folks, because that would reflect reality, and we could get a discussion on how poor people get the shaft in society.
Let's not even mention the massive rise in the cost to attend UC - in state fees is now around $13K (not including living expenses). That's a big barrier for any student from a low income background. It's gone up a lot in the past several years (25 years ago, I paid around $3K in fees for my last year at Cal). It's a real privilege to be able to attend a UC school these days and with the economic problems around, it's really hard to swallow and run up debt for an education.
Affirmative action is about creating equal access and opportunities. It was never intended as a silver bullet to solve all problems of social and economic inequality, but is just one of the tools. AA can help qualified individuals get their foot in the door, but the rest is up to them. Even so, they have to work "twice as hard" to get ahead.
You pretty much summed up what I was saying all along. There is no question that there are cases of inequality in the public school system starting in kindergarten and these have to be addressed.
However I oppose using racism and discrimination as an excuse for not working hard from the beginning where a student had equal access to opportunity.
(Madison, WI) Two studies released today by the Center for Equal Opportunity reveal severe discrimination based on race and ethnicity in undergraduate and law school admissions at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, with African Americans and Latinos given preference over whites and Asians.
Quote:
The studies are based on data supplied by the schools themselves, some of which the university had refused to turn over until a lawsuit was filed by CEO and successfully taken all the way to the state supreme court. The studies were prepared by Dr. Althea Nagai, a research fellow at CEO, and can be viewed on the organization’s website, www.ceousa.org.
Quote:
The odds ratio favoring African Americans and Hispanics over whites was 576-to-1 and 504-to-1, respectively, using the SAT and class rank while controlling for other factors. Thus, the median composite SAT score for black admittees was 150 points lower than for whites and Asians, and the Latino median SAT score was 100 points lower. Using the ACT, the odds ratios climbed to 1330-to-1 and 1494-to-1, respectively, for African Americans and Hispanics over whites.
Quote:
For law school admissions, the racial discrimination found was also severe, with the weight given to ethnicity much greater than given to, for example, Wisconsin residency. Thus, an out-of-state black applicant with grades and LSAT scores at the median for that group would have had a 7 out 10 chance of admission and an out-of-state Hispanic a 1 out of 3 chance—but an in-state Asian with those grades and scores had a 1 out of 6 chance and an in-state white only a 1 out of 10 chance.
You pretty much summed up what I was saying all along. There is no question that there are cases of inequality in the public school system starting in kindergarten and these have to be addressed.
However I oppose using racism and discrimination as an excuse for not working hard from the beginning where a student had equal access to opportunity.
Is a poor kid responsible for his crummy education? Responsible that he didn't have articulate and educated parents which to naturally absorb a grand vocabulary?
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The high cost of being poor
