Battle brewing over BART extension to Livermore (to live in, rail)

[evergraystate]

Originally Posted by EdJS

You don't know what you're talking about. How many buses do you think it would take to replace even a single BART train during rush hour? Then multiply that by the number of trains. We're talking about hundreds of additional buses on the freeways.

You're forgetting hundreds of additional jobs.

[jade408]

Originally Posted by evergraystate

You're forgetting hundreds of additional jobs.

That is completely illogical. BART reduces the need for freeway capacity since it is using separate infrastructure to transport people across the bay.

There are plenty of opportunities for BART to improve and increase capacity, but shutting down BART is idiotic.

[roadwarrior101]

In retrospect, they probably should've made BART more like a traditional subway system, mainly service SF/Oakland and a few other areas, but with several lines criss-crossing the cities. In conjunction, they should've built several lines of commuter rail, connecting SF with places like Santa Rosa, Antioch, Livermore, San Jose, etc.

[Ceece]

Originally Posted by evergraystate

You're forgetting hundreds of additional jobs.

Idiotic logic.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

In retrospect, they probably should've made BART more like a traditional subway system, mainly service SF/Oakland and a few other areas, but with several lines criss-crossing the cities. In conjunction, they should've built several lines of commuter rail, connecting SF with places like Santa Rosa, Antioch, Livermore, San Jose, etc.

Sad thing is we had all these and let them go... the key system went all the way to Sacramento...

[HockeyMac18]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

In retrospect, they probably should've made BART more like a traditional subway system, mainly service SF/Oakland and a few other areas, but with several lines criss-crossing the cities. In conjunction, they should've built several lines of commuter rail, connecting SF with places like Santa Rosa, Antioch, Livermore, San Jose, etc.

Agreed, I never quite understood why they used a subway-styled 3rd rail system as commuter-rail. BART should have focused its efforts on the urban areas (since that's what subways are best for), and faster, cheaper, and more efficient (preferably grade-separated) commuter-rail (similar to Caltrain, but electrified) should have been built for people in suburban communities to commute into the city/urban areas.

While the 3rd rail system works well underground and over short distance for its superior starting/stopping ability, it's way too slow (and unnecessarily expensive to build) for long-distance travel. And since they only built one set of rails, there's no way to incorporate express train service into their schedule.

A lot of people seem to prefer BART over services like Caltrain in the Bay Area, but if you're traveling long distances (say, SF to south bay, or outer East Bay to SF), an electrified heavy rail system could get the job done a lot better and for WAY less the cost...

I'm glad we have BART, but I sometimes wonder why things were built the way they were...just leaves me scratching my head.

[HockeyMac18]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

Sad thing is we had all these and let them go... the key system went all the way to Sacramento...

Why wasn't it kept?

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by HockeyMac18

Why wasn't it kept?

My understanding is two fold...

Ridership was starting to decline and outside interests bought the system to dismantle it... I believe some of the investors were Automotive Giants and Tire Companies... they saw profit in buses over the rail system that was bought and paid for.

The entire lower deck of the Bay Bridge was for public transit and freight...

I visited the rolling stock museum outside of Rio Vista that is on part of the original line and they have old Oakland Street Cars still in Service...

Pretty impressive all the places you could go on a trolley car...

http://www.wrm.org/about/sacramento_northern.htm

[DarkWolf]

While Rapid Transit 3rd Rail is slow , Regional Rail 3rd Rail is alot faster , and not grade separated. Currently there are over 510 miles of 3rd Rail Regional Railways in this region , with another 689 miles of 3rd Rail expansions planned over the next 2 decades... It has its limits ,like the fact that substations have to be placed close together to maintain high voltage which drives up the cost & theres also a cap at 100mph...but other then that its very good with those rural and coastal lines...it doesn't ruin the scenery. Theres only 420 miles of Overhead lines planned for the next 2 decades...most of that in New Jersey and Connecticut.


LIRR Action Under the Moon in Mineola - YouTube

[urbanist34]

To all those who have been repeating the line that "Livermore has been paying into the system for years with nothing in return," that is wrong. Livermore has received benefits in return:
- Less congestion in I-580 and other Bay Area freeways
- Ability to drive 5 miles to Dublin station
- Better air quality throughout region
- Economic activity induced by increased mobility, contributing to economic vibrancy of region

At the same time, you can make the same argument about infill stations such as SF-30th Street and East Oakland. Residents of these neighborhoods have been "paying into BART for years with nothing in return" (if you define "nothing" as "not having a station immediately and easily accessible" which is apparently how those making the argument for Livermore define it). In fact, in the case of East Oakland they have not only been paying into the system, but have had enormous elevated tracks blighting their neighborhoods for decades, without easy access to use the system.

Look, Livermore residents would benefit the most from living in a region with the most effective transit system possible. If you choose to live in an out-of-the-way, exurban location, you should not expect urban rail transit to arrive at your front door every 15 minutes. It just doesn't work that way.