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Old 06-02-2015, 05:43 PM
 
Location: San Jose, CA
1,318 posts, read 3,545,488 times
Reputation: 767

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooMuchData View Post
I have trouble fathoming this love for Caltrain. I understand Caltrain is probably doing the best they can with their limited infrastructure. But it is really quite limited. It doesn't go to downtown SF, its service is very infrequent, very slow except for the handful of baby bullet trains during weekday commute hours only, the trains are noisy, and the seats lack adequate legroom.

BART is great. Definitely the most functional form of transit in the bay area. Fast, reliable, comfortable, goes directly through downtown SF & Oakland. Some sections of track are noisy and it gets crowded during peak commute hours, but I hardly care because the train ride is so quick. Service is very frequent during commute hours, and decently frequent in the middle of the day. Late night and Sunday service is way too infrequent (20 minute headways), though that's still far more frequent than Caltrain at those same times (1-2 hour headways).

At least both BART and Caltrain allow bicycles, which is hugely useful in the bay area.

SFMTA is a conundrum. Practically every corner of the city has at least a bus stop, but due to lack of right-of-way infrastructure the only fast service is in the tunnel under Market St & twin peaks. Even there delays are common. I've given up waiting for a train after paying my Muni fare on many occasions. And once on a train it's a coin toss whether or not there will be an inexplicable delay while you sit going nowhere.

The F line historic street cars are cool, even if the line is typical Muni slow.

VTA light rail is shockingly slow. I do not understand how or why.
I don't understand how you can call BART fast and Caltrain slow. When comparing them the only BART line that is the length of the Caltrain line is the Pittsburg - SFO/Millbrae line.

To compare apples to apples I would have to compare the Pittsburgh - SFO/Millbrae line, cutting off at SFO, so basically Pittsburg to SFO, to the Caltrain trunk line (SF - SJ).

BART: ~50 miles, trip time: 86 minutes avg, max 86 min, min 86 min, 25 stations.
Caltrain: ~47 miles, trip time: ~77 min avg, max 93 min, min 56 min, 26 stations.

I don't see how one could objectively call Caltrain slow, when on average it covers the same distance in a shorter time, this is not even accounting for the fact that driving time between the stations is shorter from Pittsburg to SFO vs SJ Diridon to SF 4th & King. BART has a more roundabout route, and is slower.

If you're talking about peak speed, then yes, BART is faster, Caltrain goes up to 79mph, BART goes up to 80mph. I don't think the 1mph is a huge difference though.

The biggest differences I see between BART and Caltrain are: 1. Caltrain has bigger headways, you really need to be on the station in time, because the next train may be 15 minutes later, 20 minutes later, 40 minutes later, or 1 hr later. 2. BART is loud: Noise on BART: How bad is it and is it harmful? - SFGate, engineers decided to re-invent the wheel, and it shows, many times they didn't even bother looking at the existing rail literature and you can hear it, also one major reason everything with BART costs an arm and a leg, you can't just buy stuff off the shelf so to speak, you need custom order everything. 3. BART doesn't have huge delays as often, Caltrain has become the a popular way to commit suicide in the Bay Area, that combined with cars parked on the track, it has been come an almost once a month occurrence that Caltrain will be delayed at least 1 hr, to indefinitely during commute hours. 4. As a commuter it is obvious how dirty BART is, even though food and drink are allowed on Caltrain, and banned on BART, BART still manages to be very dirty, while Caltrain looks clean. Probably the choice of surfaces, Caltrain does not seem to use absorbent fabrics for seats and floors, BART is the opposite, we'll see how clean the new Metrolink inherited Caltrain rolling stock stays, such fabric looks bad after many years, absorbing all kinds of things.

Caltrain gets to SF from the peninsula much faster than BART, and any replacement would mean much longer commutes for Peninsula residents going to SF.

Last edited by cardinal2007; 06-02-2015 at 06:02 PM..
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:23 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
18,965 posts, read 32,465,029 times
Reputation: 13615
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardinal2007 View Post
robably the choice of surfaces, Caltrain does not seem to use absorbent fabrics for seats and floors, BART is the opposite, we'll see how clean the new Metrolink inherited Caltrain rolling stock stays, such fabric looks bad after many years, absorbing all kinds of things.
BART has all vinyl seats and hard floors now, they don't really absorb anything.
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Old 06-02-2015, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,728,449 times
Reputation: 28561
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyMac18 View Post
Not to mention that Caltrain infrastructure is just so much cheaper to build than BART. I don't understand why people want BART down the peninsula so badly...
I think most of BARTs convenience is based on the frequent schedule. Caltrain will never get to BART like frequency all day. Caltrain may work, but it doesn't come if you aren't in the peak window,

Quote:
I would love to see Caltrain and BART merge, though, since it would reduce redundancies, and guarantee funding for Caltrain (something they sorely need since they basically rely on donations to survive).

If we were smart region-wide with our money, we would work to improve BART in the most dense urban areas by adding passing tracks and more stations. And at the edge of the lines, we would build commuter rail lines that extended far out to the central valley. You could even have multiple commuter lines feed off from one BART line. You could then used money saved not used to build BART to Manteca to improve other transit around the Bay Area, such as Caltrain (grade-separate entire line, electrify the line, build the connection to the new Transbay terminal, build passing tracks along the entire stretch of the line (would be amazing)).
The fiefdoms make this hard, though BART is starting to think "Beyond the train" and more like a transit system, considering alternate technologies to serve its needs.

[quote]

Regarding transfer points, I don't know if there is much Caltrain could do about this. The line that Caltrain uses was there well before BART. Although, I find the Milbrae station to be a really great and easy transfer point.

I was referring to newer development. Muni is doing some expansion near the 22nd Street station and it'll be a little far from the station. Same with the Warm Springs extension, just about 1 mile to VTA. We have net new infrastructure and no coordination.
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Old 06-02-2015, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,728,449 times
Reputation: 28561
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcopolo666 View Post
Please, no merge. CalTrain is the best transit option in the area (well, after SFMTA).

As for unified ticketing, I just use my clipper card. Everywhere. CalTrain, VTA, MTA, BART, ferries, AC Transit, ...
And you can easily spend $10-15 each way with all of these transit agencies. A single payment system is good, but there needs to be a more unified fare system.
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Old 06-02-2015, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,728,449 times
Reputation: 28561
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardinal2007 View Post
4. As a commuter it is obvious how dirty BART is, even though food and drink are allowed on Caltrain, and banned on BART, BART still manages to be very dirty, while Caltrain looks clean. Probably the choice of surfaces, Caltrain does not seem to use absorbent fabrics for seats and floors, BART is the opposite, we'll see how clean the new Metrolink inherited Caltrain rolling stock stays, such fabric looks bad after many years, absorbing all kinds of things.

Caltrain gets to SF from the peninsula much faster than BART, and any replacement would mean much longer commutes for Peninsula residents going to SF.
BART Daily Ridership: 400k people
Caltrain daily ridership: 52K people

BART serves nearly 8x more people than Caltrain daily.
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:21 AM
 
Location: San Jose, CA
1,318 posts, read 3,545,488 times
Reputation: 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
BART Daily Ridership: 400k people
Caltrain daily ridership: 52K people

BART serves nearly 8x more people than Caltrain daily.
The multiple is 7.2 (usually to round to a whole number one rounds down if it is less than the half), so about 7x.

BART has their ridership surveys here:
Ridership Reports | bart.gov

Caltrain here:
Ridership

You can get the number for 2015 for Caltrain, and then pick the same month on the BART page and compare:
Caltrain: 58,245
BART: 420,906

420,906/58,245 = 7.226

Anyway it could be 10x or 20x, it still doesn't mean that the peninsula should rip out Caltrain and replace it with BART, it will be way slower than Caltrain, especially once the extension to downtown San Francisco is finished in 20-30 years.
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Old 06-03-2015, 10:31 AM
 
2,552 posts, read 2,451,688 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
I think most of BARTs convenience is based on the frequent schedule. Caltrain will never get to BART like frequency all day.
We're often on the same page on these points, but I'm in disagreement here. Four electrified tracks and dedicated funding and Caltrain would certainly operate as conveniently as BART. So I really second Cardinal's position that, for the peninsula and south bay, BART would be a step backward in service. It's not that BART is better, dollar-for-dollar, it is that BART is geographically larger, has much higher ridership and, as such, is just the more familiar option for many residents.
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Old 06-03-2015, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,728,449 times
Reputation: 28561
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardinal2007 View Post
The multiple is 7.2 (usually to round to a whole number one rounds down if it is less than the half), so about 7x.
You used different numbers than I did.

Quote:
Anyway it could be 10x or 20x, it still doesn't mean that the peninsula should rip out Caltrain and replace it with BART, it will be way slower than Caltrain, especially once the extension to downtown San Francisco is finished in 20-30 years.
No one mentioned ripping out Caltrain. The request was to merge operations. Very different ask.
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Old 06-05-2015, 04:56 PM
 
2,552 posts, read 2,451,688 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
You used different numbers than I did.



No one mentioned ripping out Caltrain. The request was to merge operations. Very different ask.
I think we all went on a tangent in reply to TooMuchData's post.
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Old 06-05-2015, 05:45 PM
 
213 posts, read 251,356 times
Reputation: 302
Ripping out Caltrain and running the BART gorilla of double tracking and dedicated right of way would be an amazing idea if it didn't cost over 9999 billion dollars.

Best thing to do is double track Caltrain, give it dedicated right of way and get rid of some of its redundant stations. And improve headways for gods sake. 20 minute headways on BART is already the limit of a true transit system. 40-60 minutes is a joke.
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