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Old 05-31-2012, 12:11 AM
 
Location: The Bay
6,914 posts, read 14,694,532 times
Reputation: 3119

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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenchild08 View Post
I know this thread is about Black San Francisco but... the main difference between Asians in California and the West Coast compared to the rest of the country is that there is a much wider ethnic, cultural, economic and lifestyle diversity within the Asian community in California because California is home to the largest Asian American community in the U.S. In the Bay, you have wealthy and upper middle class Asians of all nationalities who do not think of themselves as minorities in any way shape or form. Asian Silicon Valley yuppies and successful small Asian business owners who are around more Whites than Asians etc.

However, you have the complete opposite side of the spectrum in the Bay as well. The more impoverished, crime-ridden, poorly publicized side of the Asian American community which is purposely not talked about in the mainstream media to keep the "model minority" myth alive in the minds of the blissfully ignorant. Minorities are actively kept divided amongst each other through the perpetuation of the model minority myth so that Asians, Latinos and Blacks will never come together to overthrow the mostly White ruling elite in America.

Asians are not a homogenous group by any means. Many South Asian groups (i.e. Hmong, Cambodians) statistically have much higher poverty rates than both Blacks and Latinos. In my previous post on this specific topic, I already illustrated how Asians have similar to worse incomes as Blacks with similar family structure in San Francisco. Anybody who follows this forum knows that the average Black SF resident is dirt poor. San Francisco is really no different from any big city in that fact that it has a pretty high crime rate, wide income inequality as well as having many sketchy and or rough areas. However, San Francisco is different in the fact that it is undoubtedly, proportionally, the most Asian big city in America. Numbers don't lie and a large percentage of the Asian population is just as impoverished and ghettoized as the Black population in SF. BUT problems with crime and poverty within SF's Asian community are even less publicized than these same problems within SF's Black community. These Cambodian kids from SF obviously do not see themselves as being on the same social status as Whites in The City. Their questionable illegal hobbies and occupations seem to be no different from Black kids in Lakeview or Fillmore or Latino Kids who like to wear red or blue in the Mission. Just somehow, I don't think all those R.I.P. t-shirts are fake. You won't see scenes like this in Baltimore, Philadelphia, DC, Detroit or Chicago, but you will in San Francisco and many other California cities:


I was going to say the same thing in my last post... there's a very large difference between the asian community in say, Daly City vs. the one in Cupertino. A lot of the asian immigrants working in Silicon Valley come from elite backgrounds and they look down on working class asians in the US... just like with other groups there isn't a unified community. Social class is what unifies and divides people in the Bay. It's the reason why asians and blacks get along in the East Bay but not in the South Bay... in the latter there's a steep income divide between the two groups and in the former you find both groups well-represented at all socio-economic levels.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:26 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
330 posts, read 747,771 times
Reputation: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Lexus View Post
Perhaps. But given a choice between attributing what they say to baseless conjecture or a pervasive problem which can't be measured by traditional means, why choose the perspective that discards their viewpoint when you have no personal insight or clue? You're in no position to do anything but learn from them.

Claiming that these deep and real experiences, the proof of which are readily obvious if you were so inclined to notice, are irrelevant because they haven't met a BOP, is your way of saying that being indifferent and ignorant of the experience is a good place for you to be.

Unfortunately, such indifference makes you part of the problem, and really is proof to what they're talking about. Your indifference and condemnation of their experiences without having the slightest personal insight to believe otherwise, helps them and provides the BOP that you so desperately rely on here.

Frankly, attributing the problem to blacks being unqualified, makes your viewpoint far closer to that of a clueless Conservative or Klansman than not. This view has no place here.

I find their perspective very enlightening. This topic is one of the best I've read here in the SF forum, and raises a valid problem.
Give me a break.

Just because I'm stating what should be obvious does not make me a "Klansman" (side note: Klansman? Really??). The number of black people that seek degrees in engineering & science is disproportionately low relative to their population:

Declining numbers of blacks seen in math, science

"Black people are 12 percent of the U.S. population and 11 percent of all students beyond high school. In 2009, they received just 7 percent of all STEM bachelor's degrees, 4 percent of master's degrees, and 2 percent of PhDs, according to the National Center for Education Statistics."

The black population of the Bay Area is 6.7%. The number of blacks working in SV is an admittedly small 1.5%. But when you consider that:

A) You probably need a masters degree to break into the industry, and
B) of all masters degrees earned in science/engineering, only 4% go to black people...

...then that 1.5% figure is pretty close to what you would expect their representation in the SV workforce to be.

I'm not saying it can't (or shouldn't) be a higher percentage. It would be great if it were. But these accusations that the whole industry is racist just doesn't agree with the numbers, or the lack of any action on the part of the EEOC. You need to start looking at why the young black population is either uninterested in or is discouraged from seeking engineering and science degrees.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:34 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
330 posts, read 747,771 times
Reputation: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
To the bolded, it very much depends on who's being targeted for recruitment. For the most part, urban high-schools in the Bay Area are left out of the Tech equation... the tech track is something reserved for public schools in wealthier communities and ritzy private schools. The South Bay/Peninsula (the epicenter of SV) has a very tiny black presence to begin with and little to no professional black representation, least of all in said ritzy private schools. Notice that you don't see any tech recruitment whatsoever going on at EPA Academy or Lick High. The inner East Bay on the other hand has a lot of professional black families who go to the ritzy East Bay private schools, but active Tech recruitment is very much limited to the surrounding SV area. In part this is because of who is doing the recruiting... the inner East Bay is very much seen as the armpit of the Bay by the more elite types in SV. Some posters on this very site have displayed those very attitudes I'm talking about...

1. Tech companies recruit high schools? That's news to me.
2. If there's a lack of tech curriculum in high schools, then the solution would be to go complain to the school board. Not accuse the entire industry of racism.
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:42 AM
 
2,340 posts, read 4,614,108 times
Reputation: 1678
The point is that there is some degree of institutional racism within the SV IT community. Probably to a greater degree than the professional IT community in general.

If you are not in IT you may not understand it. I'm not going to post a thesis here to prove the point. A quick google search should help anyone that is interested.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SunDevil1212 View Post
Give me a break.

Just because I'm stating what should be obvious does not make me a "Klansman" (side note: Klansman? Really??). The number of black people that seek degrees in engineering & science is disproportionately low relative to their population:

Declining numbers of blacks seen in math, science

"Black people are 12 percent of the U.S. population and 11 percent of all students beyond high school. In 2009, they received just 7 percent of all STEM bachelor's degrees, 4 percent of master's degrees, and 2 percent of PhDs, according to the National Center for Education Statistics."

The black population of the Bay Area is 6.7%. The number of blacks working in SV is an admittedly small 1.5%. But when you consider that:

A) You probably need a masters degree to break into the industry, and
B) of all masters degrees earned in science/engineering, only 4% go to black people...

...then that 1.5% figure is pretty close to what you would expect their representation in the SV workforce to be.

I'm not saying it can't (or shouldn't) be a higher percentage. It would be great if it were. But these accusations that the whole industry is racist just doesn't agree with the numbers, or the lack of any action on the part of the EEOC. You need to start looking at why the young black population is either uninterested in or is discouraged from seeking engineering and science degrees.
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:45 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
330 posts, read 747,771 times
Reputation: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by baybook View Post
The point is that there is some degree of institutional racism within the SV IT community. Probably to a greater degree than the professional IT community in general.

If you are not in IT you may not understand it. I'm not going to post a thesis here to prove the point. A quick google search should help anyone that is interested.
Okay, well my point is that its counterproductive to lob accusations of racism carelessly without considering the facts and diving into the details. I've still yet to see any data that would indicate systemic and/or institutionalized racism in SV. Just a couple anecdotes from anonymous internet posters, who for all we know struggled to get ahead not because they were black but because they didn't have a marketable skill-set.

A small population of blacks working in tech does not automatically equal racism, for the reasons I described in my last post. I'd love to speak with some HR folks for these tech firms - I would bet you they are desperate to find more black candidates. You think Google, Apple, Cisco, etc...are happy about the lack of black people in their workforce? They certainly know what the public perception (right or wrong) is. Being accused of racist hiring practices is every HR director's worst nightmare.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:19 PM
 
56 posts, read 103,557 times
Reputation: 37
Is it at least safe for a black guy to live there? All I care about is being able to afford a place and if it's safe. Otherwise I don't care who my neighbors are (ethnically).
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:28 PM
 
2,340 posts, read 4,614,108 times
Reputation: 1678
I am guessing you do not really understand the meaning of institutional racism. Hr folks that would love to hire black folks doesn't counter that argument... some would say that it in facts supports the claim of larger systemic issues at play.

My guess is also that you are a) not AA or Hispanic b) not in IT and c) have never been in a position to hire individuals or contract with IT firms.
I have. There are at least 6 Professional IT/ Engineering organizations that represent thousands of Blacks and Hispanics in those fields that have done surveys and published reports about the issue.

Again, if you are truly curious, a simple Google search can hep you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SunDevil1212 View Post
Okay, well my point is that its counterproductive to lob accusations of racism carelessly without considering the facts and diving into the details. I've still yet to see any data that would indicate systemic and/or institutionalized racism in SV. Just a couple anecdotes from anonymous internet posters, who for all we know struggled to get ahead not because they were black but because they didn't have a marketable skill-set.

A small population of blacks working in tech does not automatically equal racism, for the reasons I described in my last post. I'd love to speak with some HR folks for these tech firms - I would bet you they are desperate to find more black candidates. You think Google, Apple, Cisco, etc...are happy about the lack of black people in their workforce? They certainly know what the public perception (right or wrong) is. Being accused of racist hiring practices is every HR director's worst nightmare.
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:32 PM
 
Location: The Bay
6,914 posts, read 14,694,532 times
Reputation: 3119
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunDevil1212 View Post
1. Tech companies recruit high schools? That's news to me.
Yes, they do. A college degree means less in the tech industry... Generally speaking they're looking for those with the most skill. They definitely look at high school students, and particularly those who they can scout for internships.

Most affluent high schools in SV have tech programs. Here's a couple...

Engineering Tech.
Home - Gunn Engineering

This Cupertino high school is noted for being influential in the development of SV:

Quote:
Homestead High School had played a role in the development of Silicon Valley. During the late 1960s and 1970s, the school was a haven for students interested in electronics and the emerging computer age. The school’s electronics class is considered as seminal as Frederick Terman's program at Stanford University.[7] During this period, the electronics teacher, John McCollum, created a hands-on classroom in which students like Stephen Wozniak learned while designing, building, repairing, and understanding a range of equipment.[8] Today, would-be engineers, mathematicians, and entrepreneurs find support through the school's programs in robotics, mathematics, science, business courses, and its Future Business Leaders of America chapter.
Homestead High School (Cupertino, California) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Students at these kind of schools have much more exposure to the industry and the people in it than students in the more urban schools in the South Bay/Peninsula.


Quote:
2. If there's a lack of tech curriculum in high schools, then the solution would be to go complain to the school board. Not accuse the entire industry of racism.
It is only lacking in some schools... namely those that have more black and latino students. Whites and Asians overwhelmingly do not go to the same schools as Blacks and Latinos in the SV area.
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:06 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
330 posts, read 747,771 times
Reputation: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by baybook View Post
I am guessing you do not really understand the meaning of institutional racism. Hr folks that would love to hire black folks doesn't counter that argument... some would say that it in facts supports the claim of larger systemic issues at play.

My guess is also that you are a) not AA or Hispanic b) not in IT and c) have never been in a position to hire individuals or contract with IT firms.
I have. There are at least 6 Professional IT/ Engineering organizations that represent thousands of Blacks and Hispanics in those fields that have done surveys and published reports about the issue.

Again, if you are truly curious, a simple Google search can hep you.
Look, I've googled it enough, everything I've seen makes the same baseless accusation: SV is racist because there is a lack of black employees and black entrepreneurs. No mention of course about the data that suggests blacks tend to stray away from the field when it comes to choosing careers. Also no mention of the community engagement many SV firms do with inner city schools or with black/hispanic engineering organizations.

If you have a counterpoint, just say it. You claim to have experience, why don't you just tell us why the system is so racist? Rather than simply "google it"
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:20 PM
 
2,340 posts, read 4,614,108 times
Reputation: 1678
I'm done with this. It is a far different thing to call a person "racist" than to say that there are systemic biases and institutional racism at play in SV. There are IT/Engineering hotspots in other areas of the countries as well as entire industries where the numbers make far more sense.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SunDevil1212 View Post
Look, I've googled it enough, everything I've seen makes the same baseless accusation: SV is racist because there is a lack of black employees and black entrepreneurs. No mention of course about the data that suggests blacks tend to stray away from the field when it comes to choosing careers. Also no mention of the community engagement many SV firms do with inner city schools or with black/hispanic engineering organizations.

If you have a counterpoint, just say it. You claim to have experience, why don't you just tell us why the system is so racist? Rather than simply "google it"
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