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Well, you can always try the North Bay. Or SoCal (even LA is cheaper than SF). Honestly, the Midwest/East Coast weather is really only bad the first year or two, then you get accustomed to it, even liking it. If I don't move back to California in a couple years, I'll probably go either North Jersey or the Philly metro. North Carolina is a good option if you don't mind a slower pace of life; same with the liberal bastions in other states, like Madison, Ann Arbor, Bloomington, Yellow Springs, etc.
NorthCarolina is a good option if you don't mind a slower pace of life
Gimmie a break, North Carolina!!!! Get real. As a native of Charlotte, NC, just dont see the big deal about Charlotte, NC. Choose elsewhere. Seriously.
Gimmie a break, North Carolina!!!! Get real. As a native of Charlotte, NC, just dont see the big deal about Charlotte, NC. Choose elsewhere. Seriously.
Never been to Charlotte, but Asheville is a nice town, along with the hippie town next to it. Has the highest concentration of microbreweries in the country and good nightlife for a place its size. AGAIN, only good if you want a slower pace of life.
I've started thinking about the probability that, someday, I may need to leave San Francisco.
I'm in my mid twenties, live and work in the city. I love it here and it's going to be great for the next few years. In the future, though, I'm going to want to start a family, and I'm not sure this is where I should do it. Buying a house may not be realistic for me, especially one big enough for 3-5 kids. My financial situation is good, but I don't foresee myself becoming a millionaire (or marrying one... my boyfriend is amazing, but he's an academic).
What are some other cities people who like San Francisco could move to and find some of things they like about living here? I know Portland and Eugene are popular destinations. Probably Austin as well. New York, though probably not if you want a family. A lot of people seem to stay in the greater Bay Area, which is also fair game.
Here's a quick list of areas of comparison I've been thinking about, in case anyone is going through the same mental checklist as me:
Weather San Francisco is sunny and moderate, with rainy winters and a cool spring/ summer. I wouldn't mind having seasons, but please no summers like in Washington, DC!
Size and density The density here is a big plus. It's small enough to walk/ bike many places and significantly more concentrated than a place like Austin.
Transit Transit is disappointing, which is why so many people ride their bikes. Yet, in my imaginary future life with 3-5 children, I would be driving them anyway...
Cost Rent and real estate here is ridonculous. Ri-don-cu-lous. Primary reason people move away.
Coffee, food and drink One of the best things about living here - we love our coffee and farm-fresh produce and we have tons of delicious restaurants.
Education and diversity You meet a lot of smart, accomplished people. Always good to have.
Other than good schools and cost, all of those things won't really matter after you have 3-5 kids! LOL.
I actually know several people who have left the City to settle in Oakland to raise families, and they're loving it. It's a mellower urban pace, and there is the amazing Grand Lake farmers' market, hip restaurants (not that you'll have time to go to them for a few years with kids), bustling neighborhoods, a relaxed vibe, good transit, and much nicer weather than SF (warmer and lots of sun). So I wouldn't rule it out, just get to know it better.
Portland, OR is a great town for what you're looking for, as long as you don't mind a lot of rain. I know a guy who grew up there and said it really rains all the time. They only have about 2 to 3 months in the summer when it doesn't rain very much. And it gets much, much colder in the winter. It doesn't often snow, but it can, and there are occasional ice storms. You certainly won't see those big palm trees in Portland, but if you like a moderate four seasons climate, you might like it.
San Diego is PERFECT for raising a family. It's a family town, but it's also got lots of cool Bay Area style neighborhoods with older homes and cottages, and trendy neighborhoods with decent restaurants, and surprisingly acceptable transit options in the urban core. And the weather is very mild. Housing is affordable at the moment. Do not overlook San Diego.
Also, consider Sacramento. Midtown Sacramento has really transformed into a smaller Portland. Tons of cool restaurants, great coffee shops, parks, and cute houses. Better schools are probably found in more suburban areas, but it's another great family option, plus you can go to Tahoe on weekends.
Lastly, a lot of San Franciscans move to the Bay Area suburbs. Marin and Walnut Creek/Danville come to mind. Marin is really really expensive though. So is Danville. WC is a little better, and it's a bustling downtown, but be prepared for a very different vibe and demographic than much of the Bay Area -- more conservative, more chain-store oriented. But amazing stuff for kids to do: parks, rec programs, swimming, horseback riding, biking, little league, skating, etc. It's super outdoorsy. And it's extremely sunny most of the year.
Also, consider Sacramento. Midtown Sacramento has really transformed into a smaller Portland. Tons of cool restaurants, great coffee shops, parks, and cute houses. Better schools are probably found in more suburban areas, but it's another great family option, plus you can go to Tahoe on weekends.
Good suggestion, I should've thought of it myself having lived in Sac! There are some nice neighborhoods with good elementary schools and craftsman houses ringing Midtown - East Sacramento, Curtis Park, Land Park - that are considered "expensive" locally but will seem like real bargains coming from the Bay Area.
The geography of Sacramento is a real downer compared to the Bay Area - stuck in the middle of a hot, flat valley 80 miles from the ocean and at least 20 miles from any significant hills. However once you are considering moving clear across the country to find your dream, Sac starts to seem more attractive.
It depends on what "safe" means to you. Frankly, a lot of Oakland gets written off by many as unsafe simply because there's not enough people around who look just like them for their comfort zone... often it has very little to do with the actual level of danger. To put a face to what I'm talking about, why is it that neighborhoods like Golden Gate and Bushrod in North Oakland are seeing a wealthier population move in in spite of the fact that both neighborhoods are at the heart of a gang injunction and an ongoing turf war while neighborhoods like the Eastmont Hills and Toler Heights in East Oakland - solidly middle class, close to BART, great weather, easy access to 580 and 880, very affordable - are all but ignored? One would think that gentrification would occur in areas that already have a population with enough capital to be able to support more upscale commodities... instead, gentrification is largely happening in what were very recently some of the poorest and most violent Oakland neighborhoods.
Thanks for the neighborhood recommendations - I'll give them a closer look. Doing some preliminary internet research, here is what I've found:
We must have a very different definition of "close to BART," because to me that means you can walk to BART. That means it is generally within 1 mile, with 1.5 miles being the absolute outer range of "close." Toler Heights & Eastmont Hills are more than 2.5 miles minimum from Coliseum BART. Furthermore, you have to traverse some of Oakland's worst neighborhoods in between.
Doing a quick school search, the schools that look like they are close to these neighborhoods have Greatschools ratings of 3 (Marshall & Howard), 1 (Reach Academy & Rise Community School), and 2 (East Oakland Pride Elementary). There is one San Leandro school near Toler Heights with a decent rating of 7, but I don't know if they take Oakland kids. So far this doesn't sound very promising.
I typed a few intersections along MacArthur Blvd in these neighborhoods into Walkscore and got scores between 50 and 55. Walkscore is not perfect, but I have found that neighborhoods that are walkable according to my own standards generally score in the 80s & 90s.
Now you mentioned Bushrod & Golden Gate. First off, you may have noticed that this is a thread about locations to raise a family. From my experience, Bushrod & Golden Gate are popular with young gentrifiers, but I do not think of them and do not know anyone who thinks they are good places to raise a family. The young-family-not-wealthy-but-trying-to-stay-near-the-city types I know generally pick places like Temescal, Piedmont Ave, Lake Merritt neighborhoods, Glenview, Dimond, Laurel, etc.
Secondly, the reasons Bushrod & Golden Gate are popular could be much less sinister than you think. These areas are: A) actually close to BART, B) actually walkable (for example, Alcatraz & Shattuck scored 94 San Pablo & Powell 82), and C) close to Berkeley, Rockridge, Temescal etc. There are also WAY more jobs within easy biking distance in Emeryville & Berkeley. In fact, I know quite a few people who have connections in Berkeley (work there, went to school there, lived there, etc) who gradually got pushed out into Bushrod or Golden Gate by housing prices. I'm sure they picked they picked the area because it was just down the street from their job, friends and businesses they are used to, not solely due to the racial makeup of the area.
Thanks for the neighborhood recommendations - I'll give them a closer look. Doing some preliminary internet research, here is what I've found:
We must have a very different definition of "close to BART," because to me that means you can walk to BART. That means it is generally within 1 mile, with 1.5 miles being the absolute outer range of "close." Toler Heights & Eastmont Hills are more than 2.5 miles minimum from Coliseum BART. Furthermore, you have to traverse some of Oakland's worst neighborhoods in between.
Doing a quick school search, the schools that look like they are close to these neighborhoods have Greatschools ratings of 3 (Marshall & Howard), 1 (Reach Academy & Rise Community School), and 2 (East Oakland Pride Elementary). There is one San Leandro school near Toler Heights with a decent rating of 7, but I don't know if they take Oakland kids. So far this doesn't sound very promising.
I typed a few intersections along MacArthur Blvd in these neighborhoods into Walkscore and got scores between 50 and 55. Walkscore is not perfect, but I have found that neighborhoods that are walkable according to my own standards generally score in the 80s & 90s.
Now you mentioned Bushrod & Golden Gate. First off, you may have noticed that this is a thread about locations to raise a family. From my experience, Bushrod & Golden Gate are popular with young gentrifiers, but I do not think of them and do not know anyone who thinks they are good places to raise a family. The young-family-not-wealthy-but-trying-to-stay-near-the-city types I know generally pick places like Temescal, Piedmont Ave, Lake Merritt neighborhoods, Glenview, Dimond, Laurel, etc.
Secondly, the reasons Bushrod & Golden Gate are popular could be much less sinister than you think. These areas are: A) actually close to BART, B) actually walkable (for example, Alcatraz & Shattuck scored 94 San Pablo & Powell 82), and C) close to Berkeley, Rockridge, Temescal etc. There are also WAY more jobs within easy biking distance in Emeryville & Berkeley. In fact, I know quite a few people who have connections in Berkeley (work there, went to school there, lived there, etc) who gradually got pushed out into Bushrod or Golden Gate by housing prices. I'm sure they picked they picked the area because it was just down the street from their job, friends and businesses they are used to, not solely due to the racial makeup of the area.
My point is that a lot of the people in North Oakland now probably don't remember/didn't live through the YBMB era despite that it only ended 5 years ago... that area - particularly Bushrod - was one of the most violent areas of Oakland for a long time. Temescal was not much better either. I think the current popularity and gentrification boom has everything to do with the fact that as poor college students started to move into the North Oakland area the demographics shifted considerably enough where people who wouldn't have given that area the time of day a couple years ago are now moving there, which in turn attracts the businesses they frequent to the area.
Contrast that to areas like the Eastmont Hills and Toler Heights that have been affordable, relatively low-crime and middle class for decades but are entirely bypassed by investment. While I agree that North Oakland's proximity to Berkeley and SF is a very significant factor, I don't think it's the only factor.
On schools, people who live in Eastmont Hils/Toler Heights/Golf Links typically don't go to schools in the flatlands, they go to schools in the hill neighborhoods (Grass Valley, Skyline, etc.) or catholic/private schools (Bishop O'Dowd). And other than Tech and OMI North Oakland schools are just as crappy as Deep East Oakland schools.
And the Coliseum BART is a straight shot down 73rd... the 73 bus ride from Eastmont Mall to the Coliseum BART is around 7 minutes.
And again, this is not limited to Oakland... I've seen this in just about every other major American city I've been to. I'm simply commenting on a trend I see nationwide as it applies to Oakland.
I had a good friend who stayed on 43rd & Market in the mid-90s. The 43rd street sign across from the liquor store had about 7 bullet holes from target practice. I guarantee you wouldn't see that today.
Based on your description I would say North Berkeley.
The weather is going to be a huge factor in other parts of the country. The rain/humidity in Portland and the heat/humidity in Austin. The weather in San Diego is great but it has zero public transportation options.
San Francisco is a very unique place. Having a family in a city is not easy but a lot of people do it. Life changes after having kids so maybe some of the things you enjoy doing today will not be so enjoyable with a kid in tow. I suggest you take one step at a time. Stay in the city and have one kid first then decide how you feel about it. You have 5 years to make your decision before the kid goes to school, so take your time and don't let the school decision affect you right now. Good luck!
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