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Old 01-02-2013, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Piedmont, CA/São Paulo, Brazil
33,657 posts, read 58,029,676 times
Reputation: 16911

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
The main problem with this is the belief that the actual goal of the US prison system is to rehabilitate inmates in the first place. It's not the goal and hasn't been for a long time now. In reality, prison has been monetized to the point where there's now a fiscal incentive to lock people up, and it's not just in the privately owned prisons either... Ever heard of FPI (Federal Prison Industries)? They have people working in factories for Third World wages (23 cents to $1.15 per hour, half of which generally goes to paying court-ordered fines and etc. under the IFRP) doing the kind of manual labor they used to pay the parents of these inmates living wages for four decades ago. These skills don't translate into the regular job market either as next to nothing is manufactured in the US anymore... prison is literally the only job market where corporations can get away with paying Americans the same rates they pay the poorest people in China/India/Thailand.

To see an actual rehabilitory prison system in action look at Norway... the US is not one of them.
Excellent post.

Tongue-in-cheek aside, there are some people who are going to commit crimes regardless as to how much effort we put forth into helping them--that's just life. And for that group quite frankly I have very little sympathy.

So the focus needs to change from incarceration to actual rehabilitation AND reintegration into society for those who actually want to improve themselves and turn away from their former life of crime.

I refuse to believe that these thoughts havent crossed the minds of people within the system-so why havent they done anything to exact the sort of real change that is needed?

Its all very frustrating.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Lafayette, CA
2,518 posts, read 3,582,840 times
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At vigil, Oaklanders remember homicide victims, consider actions to prevent violence | Oakland North

Quote:
Oakland has seen its most deadly year in 2012 since 2006, when the death toll reached 146, according to Sgt. Christopher Bolton, a spokesperson for the police department. This year has been unusually violent, however, with the Oikos school shooting that left seven dead, the deaths of many teenagers and several shootings during the holiday season. “Just yesterday, someone asked me how many crosses do we have planted in the garden at St. Columba?” said Pastor Aidan McAleenan of St. Columba outside of the church prior to the ceremony. “I said, ‘Well, at 8 p.m., it’s 130, but I don’t know what it’ll be tomorrow.’ Minutes later a 15-year-old girl was murdered by a 13-year-old.”
But I guess for some people, these are acceptable casualties as long as it's "only criminals" killing each other.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,093 posts, read 31,783,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
Excellent post.

Tongue-in-cheek aside, there are some people who are going to commit crimes regardless as to how much effort we put forth into helping them--that's just life. And for that group quite frankly I have very little sympathy.

So the focus needs to change from incarceration to actual rehabilitation AND reintegration into society for those who actually want to improve themselves and turn away from their former life of crime.

I refuse to believe that these thoughts havent crossed the minds of people within the system-so why havent they done anything to exact the sort of real change that is needed?

Its all very frustrating.
Big prisions have higher profit margins than good schools.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:15 PM
 
Location: The Bay
6,915 posts, read 12,998,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGoldstein View Post
At vigil, Oaklanders remember homicide victims, consider actions to prevent violence | Oakland North



But I guess for some people, these are acceptable casualties as long as it's "only criminals" killing each other.
Despite the fact that I don't agree with 18Montclair's position, you're kidding yourself if you believe that isn't how most people around the country rationalize street violence anyway from NYC to Oakland. That attitude is reflected in our prison system that allows thousands to be raped, abused and etc. within its walls because the reality is our country sees inmates as less than human regardless of what their crime is.

Last edited by Nineties Flava; 01-02-2013 at 02:29 PM..
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Piedmont, CA/São Paulo, Brazil
33,657 posts, read 58,029,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGoldstein View Post


But I guess for some people, these are acceptable casualties as long as it's "only criminals" killing each other.
Yes, it is acceptable for some people.

Anything else? cause your baiting is getting boring. Yawns.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Piedmont, CA/São Paulo, Brazil
33,657 posts, read 58,029,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
Big prisions have higher profit margins than good schools.
This is why I question the ability of successful business people when it comes to governance and public office and they tout their business success. They approach everything from the standpoint of profitablity(which I appreciate from a business standpoint) and that equates to scorched earth, slash-and-burn management over something EXPENSIVE BUT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY like the penal system, schools and health care.

Point blank: Government is not a business and we need to stop measuring its success as if it were.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Lafayette, CA
2,518 posts, read 3,582,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
Despite the fact that I don't agree with 18Montclair's position, you're kidding yourself if you believe that isn't how most people around the country rationalizes street violence anyway from NYC to Oakland. That attitude is reflected in our prison system that allows thousands to be raped, abused and etc. within its walls because the reality is our country sees inmates as less than human regardless of what their crime is.
That's nice for you to offer your opinion, but that attitude does nothing to solve the problems in places like Oakland where violent crime and homicides are sky rocketing. No one should be trying to 'rationalize' street violence in the first place, especially not in the way of "let the animals kill each other, who cares".

By the time they get to prison, it's already too late.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:33 PM
 
Location: US
20,595 posts, read 20,211,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
Despite the fact that I don't agree with 18Montclair's position, you're kidding yourself if you believe that isn't how most people around the country rationalizes street violence anyway from NYC to Oakland. That attitude is reflected in our prison system that allows thousands to be raped, abused and etc. within its walls because the reality is our country sees inmates as less than human regardless of what their crime is.
Montclair's position though goes way beyond criminals killing criminals. Most people in this country don't mind if criminals kill each other IF there is no collateral damage. Montclair essentially said he/she would WELCOME 500-1,000 murders because 80% of them would be criminals. That means 200 innocent people would have to die in order to remove 800 criminals. I made these figures very clear and he/she triple downed on the statement. I don't think any sane person would honestly be okay with this. We all have our disagreements on here, but this remark is ridiculous. If I would have lost someone I cared about due to a criminal, I would be immensely offended and probably shouldn't say much else because it might violate TOS. Who in their right mind would honestly want to see the number of murders INCREASE?!
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:39 PM
 
Location: The Bay
6,915 posts, read 12,998,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335xi View Post
Montclair's position though goes way beyond criminals killing criminals. Most people in this country don't mind if criminals kill each other IF there is no collateral damage. Montclair essentially said he/she would WELCOME 500-1,000 murders because 80% of them would be criminals. That means 200 innocent people would have to die in order to remove 800 criminals. I made these figures very clear and he/she triple downed on the statement. I don't think any sane person would honestly be okay with this. We all have our disagreements on here, but this remark is ridiculous. If I would have lost someone I cared about due to a criminal, I would be immensely offended and probably shouldn't say much else because it might violate TOS. Who in their right mind would honestly want to see the number of murders INCREASE?!

Talk about fake outrage I'm guessing you don't find it equally insane and ridiculous that you probably do tolerate it when tens if not hundreds of innocents die every year in cities like New York and Chicago because the homicide rates are lower?
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:42 PM
 
Location: The Bay
6,915 posts, read 12,998,752 times
Reputation: 3072
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGoldstein View Post
That's nice for you to offer your opinion, but that attitude does nothing to solve the problems in places like Oakland where violent crime and homicides are sky rocketing. No one should be trying to 'rationalize' street violence in the first place, especially not in the way of "let the animals kill each other, who cares".

By the time they get to prison, it's already too late.

And in a turn of irony you just demonstrated the exact attitude I described... You are a part of the problem.
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