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Like bmw335xi mentioned, San Mateo is a bit more expensive, but has the advantage of being surrounded by many other affluent towns, and does get a lot of people driving into the downtown from outside the town many days of the week. Walnut Creek will be a bit cheaper, but will be a bit more isolated comparatively. They're both located at major stops on their respective transit lines (BART for Walnut Creek, Caltrain for San Mateo).
WC has affluent feeders in Danville, Alamo, Blackhawk. Upper middle class feeder areas from San Ramon, Pleasanton (and parts of Dublin). Downtown WC's "mall" is much higher end than San Mateo, and keeps moving upmarket. And even a little bit from the central valley.
Over the past couple of years, Neiman Marcus, Burberry, Lacoste have opened up. Joining Tiffany and Nordstorm's. Over the past 10 years, downtown WC has been purging midrange stores. Ann Taylor Loft, Aerosoles have all left. I don't think Gap is actually in the "Broadway Plaza" mall anymore, one of the adjacent shopping centers. Ann Taylor is also in one of the adjacents as well.
I'd imagine that San Mateo isn't actually pulling in the shoppers from Atherton, San Carlos, Burlingame, and Hillsborough although they are in close proximity. They must be headed to Palo Alto or SF.
It might not be all that cheap anymore either. The older downtown buildings perhaps, but not the newer ones next to the art center or Nordies and Neimans. It keeps getting more and more posh.
WC has affluent feeders in Danville, Alamo, Blackhawk. Upper middle class feeder areas from San Ramon, Pleasanton (and parts of Dublin). Downtown WC's "mall" is much higher end than San Mateo, and keeps moving upmarket. And even a little bit from the central valley.
Over the past couple of years, Neiman Marcus, Burberry, Lacoste have opened up. Joining Tiffany and Nordstorm's. Over the past 10 years, downtown WC has been purging midrange stores. Ann Taylor Loft, Aerosoles have all left. I don't think Gap is actually in the "Broadway Plaza" mall anymore, one of the adjacent shopping centers. Ann Taylor is also in one of the adjacents as well.
I'd imagine that San Mateo isn't actually pulling in the shoppers from Atherton, San Carlos, Burlingame, and Hillsborough although they are in close proximity. They must be headed to Palo Alto or SF.
It might not be all that cheap anymore either. The older downtown buildings perhaps, but not the newer ones next to the art center or Nordies and Neimans. It keeps getting more and more posh.
I'm pretty sure I nver argued WC isn't affluent or has higher-end shopping than San Mateo. San Mateo's rental prices are going to be higher than WC, though. WC, compared to many other East Bay cities, will be higher-priced on the rental side of things. Maybe you latched on to my word usage of the word "cheap" and thought I was calling the town "cheap"...I'm not saying that at all, but rather just that rental prices in WC are going to be cheaper compared to San Mateo (which is important since the OP is looking to open a brick-and-mortar business in one of these towns).
I'm not sure how you can call WC's shopping more "upmarket" when there isn't really any shopping in San Mateo to begin with. A better comparison will be Burlingame, which is more retail-oriented. Burlingame and WC are pretty comparable on the "high end" shopping end of things, although WC will have a higher quantity of options. Hillsborough residents will do most of their "boutique" shopping in Burlingame (higher end stuff, similar to WC), but will often eat out at the many restaurants in San Mateo, so you do get that crowd in San Mateo.
I personally feel WC and San Mateo are pretty comparable on a vibrancy scale. I don't think the OP could go wrong with either choice. Visit both and get a feel for each.
Last edited by HockeyMac18; 03-04-2013 at 02:04 PM..
Downtown is bigger and has more going on all around than Downtown San Mateo. I don't really get the whole "it's more isolated" part as it's not much further from SF than San Mateo is and is arguably better connected as BART has much more frequent service than Caltrain. Plus the East Bay simply has far more people than the Peninsula. WC is a fairly large destination for people all over Central/Eastern Contra Costa County as well as parts of Alameda County to the south.
Now that you mention that, and I think about it a little more, I do think I "mispoke".
What I meant to say is that I think WC might "feel" a bit more isolated since you have to cross over hills/through a tunnel to get there, but it's probably just as well connected to the rest of the Bay Area as San Mateo is. And I'm not just referring to connectedness to SF, but rather connectedness to other cities near it. It's probably a wash.
San Mateo is closer to much of the action in Silicon Valley, and working at Stanford, I know many people that go to San Mateo to eat quite frequently. Anecdotal as there's no hard data on where people are coming from, but it is pulling in people from outside of the town. WC is a regional pull, as well, so it's hard to know which is better. One could probably argue either way.
I'm pretty sure I nver argued WC isn't affluent or has higher-end shopping than San Mateo. San Mateo's rental prices are going to be higher than WC, though. WC, compared to many other East Bay cities, will be higher-priced on the rental side of things. Maybe you latched on to my word usage of the word "cheap" and thought I was calling the town "cheap"...I'm not saying that at all, but rather just that rental prices in WC are going to be cheaper compared to San Mateo (which is important since the OP is looking to open a brick-and-mortar business in one of these towns).
I'm not sure how you can call WC's shopping more "upmarket" when there isn't really any shopping in San Mateo to begin with. A better comparison will be Burlingame, which is more retail-oriented. Burlingame and WC are pretty comparable on the "high end" shopping end of things, although WC will have a higher quantity of options. Hillsborough residents will do most of their "boutique" shopping in Burlingame (higher end stuff, similar to WC), but will often eat out at the many restaurants in San Mateo, so you do get that crowd in San Mateo.
I personally feel WC and San Mateo are pretty comparable on a vibrancy scale. I don't think the OP could go wrong with either choice. Visit both and get a feel for each.
I am thinking of the overall shopping options in SM (including Hillsdale) vs WC (not only downtowns). WC is pulling in slightly different clients than SM is. In and out of downtown.
OP didn't give us a really good persona on her target customer, so I thought I'd chime in with more details on who DT WC is trying to appeal to at the moment. The real question is, when exactly do people fit in some travel planning in their day. When they are doing shopping errands or eating out. And how many walk-ins can you realistically expect.
SM has lots of dinner options, and mostly food, less shopping. So are people who are on lunch breaks perusing for travel planning? Not really sure. Which area is pulling in more people for leisure during the week is likely a key question. And maybe who gets more of a a "ladies who lunch" crowd, who presumably have tons of spare time.
How much time does a person need in order to sit in the store and do their planning? 30 minutes, 2 hours....
OP hasn't also mapped out demos for us on the target customers. What sort of travel are they doing? Adventure traveling, experience based travelling, connecting with family, learning about their heritage, or what. All of this would really tie into where she should place her shop. Are they planning 1 week trips, or 8 week sabbaticals? Are they wanting to travel in luxury? Or live like the locals....
For example, if she is looking for a foodie traveller, it would make sense to locate to the most "foodie" area. Luxury travelers.... Or adventure travelers, who are likely also attracted to retail districts with lots of unique/eclectic stores etc.
I think, based on the info we know, it is really difficult to make any concrete recommendations. Considering the OP doesn't really know a lot about the areas, I thought it would help to chime in about the neighboring places too.....
San MAteo has a lot of competition for foot traffic in DT compared to WC. WC is the draw for the nearby cities, vs San MAteo has several competing areas in a 15 mile radius.
I am thinking of the overall shopping options in SM (including Hillsdale) vs WC (not only downtowns). WC is pulling in slightly different clients than SM is. In and out of downtown.
OP didn't give us a really good persona on her target customer, so I thought I'd chime in with more details on who DT WC is trying to appeal to at the moment. The real question is, when exactly do people fit in some travel planning in their day. When they are doing shopping errands or eating out. And how many walk-ins can you realistically expect.
SM has lots of dinner options, and mostly food, less shopping. So are people who are on lunch breaks perusing for travel planning? Not really sure. Which area is pulling in more people for leisure during the week is likely a key question. And maybe who gets more of a a "ladies who lunch" crowd, who presumably have tons of spare time.
How much time does a person need in order to sit in the store and do their planning? 30 minutes, 2 hours....
OP hasn't also mapped out demos for us on the target customers. What sort of travel are they doing? Adventure traveling, experience based travelling, connecting with family, learning about their heritage, or what. All of this would really tie into where she should place her shop. Are they planning 1 week trips, or 8 week sabbaticals? Are they wanting to travel in luxury? Or live like the locals....
For example, if she is looking for a foodie traveller, it would make sense to locate to the most "foodie" area. Luxury travelers.... Or adventure travelers, who are likely also attracted to retail districts with lots of unique/eclectic stores etc.
I think, based on the info we know, it is really difficult to make any concrete recommendations. Considering the OP doesn't really know a lot about the areas, I thought it would help to chime in about the neighboring places too.....
San MAteo has a lot of competition for foot traffic in DT compared to WC. WC is the draw for the nearby cities, vs San MAteo has several competing areas in a 15 mile radius.
Thank you everyone for your contribution! Everything is starting to get clearer and clearer.
jade408: thank you! I am going to reply to your question to make everything more clear:
- First point, I am a he not a she lol
- About the persona: I am looking for mostly females (lot of moms) that step by the store while during errands or just to say hi (I want to create a strong relationship with each of my customers) In my previous location I had about 15-20 people coming in a day on average. I also had days with 40+ people a day. A lot were coming 1) directly from home 2) they just passed through and stopped by 3) between errands and 4) on lunch breaks or after work. Most of people sit between 20 to 40 minutes. Most of them purchase one and weeks vacation, flight tickets and hotels in different cities around the world. These are about 80%. The rest is honeymoons, tours and luxury vacation (a few.)
Other than WC and San Mateo, Are there any areas in San Francisco (like close to the golden gate park) that could fit my target and community feeling? (bmw335xi suggested to look at parts in SF.) In case I would open in San Francisco, I would need a safe area close to schools and residential areas where females shops when they do their errands. Open malls or the store in a busy road work great.
One more point: I am Italian so, if I open in SF, I could create a very strong relationship with other italians around the area.
BTW: I am coming to SF next week to take a look at the different areas to get a better feel of the areas.
Thank you so much! I know I am asking a lot of question and I apoligise for this.
Last edited by kingsitaliano; 03-04-2013 at 03:48 PM..
One thing to keep in mind, most small cities (especially in CA) do not have downtowns that are well incorporated into daily life. Where people walk around, hang out, etc. People go to the strip mall and leave. Not much leisurely strolling. And most people drive to visit the shopping area and leave. You might be defining your target the wrong way.
The feeling you describe of people stopping in daily to say hi to the shop owners isn't super common in most parts of the US. Downtowns mainly serve as entertainment or dining or shopping destinations, not places to do your daily errands. The average suburban dweller heads to the strip mall for groceries and such, and only visits downtown once in a while for a specific purpose. Going downtown isn't integrated in daily life anymore. Especially in a suburban place like San Mateo or Walnut Creek. SM does have a drugstore in the middle of downtown. In WC, the drugstores and groceries are in strip malls near downtown. But people who are headed downtown to Safeway, aren't walking over to the other parts of downtown.
There are loads of neighborhoods that might work.
For example: Rockridge in Oakland, and the Piedmont Ave areas have tons of people out and about all day in those shopping districts (very friendly business districts/associations). And also lots of people in walking distance. Cafes are packed all day with moms, hipsters, retired people, people who work from home.....
Montclair in Oakland could work too. I haven't spent much day time there, but it is pretty busy over there and a large commercial district. Demographics are good for your target.
Noe Valley in SF is very family oriented. Lots of people walking around and such. Probably a good area, and pricey.
I don't know if your vision of the storefront matches up well with how people integrate downtown in their errand running.
You might be better served with focusing on a full service more urban and pedestrian-oriented neighborhood than a nice destination suburban downtown.
I don't know if your vision of the storefront matches up well with how people integrate downtown in their errand running.
You might be better served with focusing on a full service more urban and pedestrian-oriented neighborhood than a nice destination suburban downtown.
I'm starting to think the same thing. Suburbs don't usually consist of people doing a lot of their day-to-day errands in downtowns as much. But, in the urban parts of the Bay Area (mainly SF and Oakland), there are many neighborhoods where this is more common.
The neighborhoods in Oakland that Jade mentioned are good.
In SF, in addition to Noe Valley, there are many other good neighborhoods that might work, such as Inner Richmond (around Clement St or along Geary), Inner Sunset (Irving and Judah), West Portal, Cole Valley, and other neighborhoods near these areas. Also, it was mentioned that finding an Italian area could be important, so one could look at North Beach to find this kind of area (although it is pretty touristy and restaurant/bar-oriented, so I don't know how good of an area that would be to set up shop).
The main things that would make setting up a business in SF would be the cost (as in, it'll be high). Oakland would be far more affordable for setting up a business.
Also, you won't necessarily get the "small town downtown" feel in these places. But you will still get much of the strong community support aspects in these vibrant neighborhood centers.
WC has plenty of non-working moms and housewives in the feeder area. But you really need to work on your word of mouth advertising, and get involved with the local groups. Mommy play groups. Volunteer organizations. Etc.
There are travel agents in downtown WC. And the downtown is pretty bug, not all blocks are equally active. Also there are a few offices in downtown and near downtown.
OP, I vote for WC, too (though Rockridge--which would draw college students as well as others, and Montclair also sound good), but I'm wondering if you could give your concept a bit more cachet by maybe adding a travel bookstore and a coffee bar into a corner of it. Once people get to know it, those who have been to far-flung places could give power-point lectures on where they've been. It could become a cool hangout on weekends, a place for people to meet for lunch during the week, that sort of thing. If that aspect of it catches on, you could expand it over time. It would bring you customers for your ticket business. There's a place like that in my town that's remarkably popular.
P.S. Rockridge has commercial rent control on the main commercial street--College Avenue. It might be the most affordable locale, if you're considering cost.
jade408, hockeymac18: thank you very much for your insights! It does look like the urban areas of the Bay area could be a great fit.
ruth4truth: thank you for your suggestion, I will definitely keep it in mind!
Summarizing your suggestions, I currently have for San Francisco ( I would prefer SF to Oakland):
- Noe Valley - most suggested
- Inner Richmond (around Clement St or along Geary),
- Inner Sunset (Irving and Judah),
- West Portal,
- Cole Valley
- North Beach (not the best because touristy)
It does sound like a neighborhood in an urban city where I can find a lot of traffic all day and my target customer is the best fit.
jade408: It was in the east side of Sacramento.
Thank you!
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