Why can't they just fire all the BART workers and hire new ones? (Santa Clara: homes, buying)

[MadisonR]

Originally Posted by John Williams

Exactly how much is an "unskilled, uneducated" entry level BART position worth? $30k/year? $20k? How far can BART salaries drop before they end up not being enough to sustain the person working that position?

The salary should be related to what the market will bear, if that means a BART train driver who needs the same skills as a $5/hour McDonald's food server, then that is all he should be paid. There is no justification, legal or otherwise, to force the taxpayer to subsidize salaries for a segment of the population. The government's role is to provide services at the lowest possible cost, i.e., tax level, to the public - not provide makework jobs for a few.

The garbage needs to be collected, so the city hires garbagemen - they are not hired because the city wanted to provide some jobs for a few people.

And had you read my earlier posts, I stated that I am not against unions, only public sector ones.

[neutrino78x]

Originally Posted by John Williams

Exactly how much is an "unskilled, uneducated" entry level BART position worth? $30k/year? $20k? How far can BART salaries drop before they end up not being enough to sustain the person working that position?

Unfortunately, I've been stuck in an unskilled labor job for nearly seven years, I take clothing donations at a trailer for a charity. I make the minimum wage in the City of San Jose, $10/hr full time or about 15,000 dollars a year. If I can buy food and pay rent for that salary, so can BART servants.

Also seems a lot of people here have a hard-on for terminating unions with extreme prejudice, for good reasons and bad.

Well, their ability to extort an artificially high salary through the threat of a strike is morally wrong and dishonorable. Plus it hurts the ability of those who ride BART -- the public that the BART union is supposed to serve -- to get to work to earn money to feed their families.

[neutrino78x]

Plus, as I said earlier, when I was in the USN, my job was more intellectually challenging and more dangerous than that if a BART train operator, and I was paid a lot less, $1800/month. I think now an E-4 makes about 2000/month.

[zombocom]

Originally Posted by MadisonR

Where did I claim that civil service rules were identical to forming a union? Can you stop using strawmen, or is that your only method of discussion?

I never said you claimed that. I asked you that question. Rather than answer it, you gave me a generalized mission statement.

Note in my post where I said "I asked for..."

[MadisonR]

Originally Posted by zombocom

I never said you claimed that. I asked you that question. Rather than answer it, you gave me a generalized mission statement. Note in my post where I said "I asked for..."

Is this thread about comparing civil service rules to union membership?

Since it is not, why are you persisting in asking me this off-topic, deflective nonsense question?

If you want to know the weather in Denver CO, go look it up...I am not your Official Web resource.

[zombocom]

Originally Posted by MadisonR

Is this thread about comparing civil service rules to union membership?

Since it is not, why are you persisting in asking me this off-topic, deflective nonsense question?

If you want to know the weather in Denver CO, go look it up...I am not your Official Web resource.

You brought up civil service. However, I completely understand your reticence in answering the question.

[neutrino78x]

I think madisonr's point is that government service work already has restrictions as to what you can be ordered to do and thus there is no need for a union. From my own perspective as a veteran, BART workers have it very easy compared to what we in the Armed Forces must endure for our country. Plus they are vastly overpaid. So the BART union has nothing to go on strike over.

[zombocom]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

I think madisonr's point is that government service work already has restrictions as to what you can be ordered to do and thus there is no need for a union. From my own perspective as a veteran, BART workers have it very easy compared to what we in the Armed Forces must endure for our country. Plus they are vastly overpaid. So the BART union has nothing to go on strike over.

I know that's what he is alleging, I asked him to substantiate that claim by showing that civil service protections provide the same things that unionization does.

[MrWillys]

Originally Posted by zombocom

I know that's what he is alleging, I asked him to substantiate that claim by showing that civil service protections provide the same things that unionization does.

The argument against public service employees is flawed. To somehow think their not subject to poor management is incorrect. I know that the most important thing to a teacher is due process in case of a claim against them. Today's world have people that would claim almost anything for a lawsuit settlement. Just ask the football player who did 5 years on a false claim of rape. Individuals in public service deserve unions just as much as anyone else. If it was just easier to fire the teacher (could be a popular great one) than to deal with these nuisance claims is that the right thing for us all?
I'm a retired Carpenter from the bay area, and we make a good living if you're good enough to stay busy year round.

[silverkris]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Plus, as I said earlier, when I was in the USN, my job was more intellectually challenging and more dangerous than that if a BART train operator, and I was paid a lot less, $1800/month. I think now an E-4 makes about 2000/month.

So instead of getting all hot and bothered about that, why don't you go apply for a Fed job? You're a veteran and you would have preferences for employment.