Why can't they just fire all the BART workers and hire new ones? (San Jose: condo, how much)

[neutrino78x]

Originally Posted by zombocom

A good paying job? Except that you advocate no good paying jobs if you work for the government.

Of course not. You are a servant working for The Greater Good. So you should get what the government can afford to pay. The real benefit of working for the government is the honor and privilege of being part of a great institution. There are other jobs you can get if you want really good pay. To get a six figure job in the military, you would have to be an admiral or something.

Anyway, a train mechanic probably has more skills and does more difficult work than your average B.A holder...

Nope, a train mechanic didn't go to college for four years.

[zombocom]

A room in an apartment - wow, so in 40 years we went from the middle class being able to buy a house, to a room in an apartment is good enough for you!

You remind me of a quote by Jay Gould: I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

You know, maybe people should be less concerned with government workers making middle class wages, and more concerned with why wages in the private sector have been decreasing for the last 30 years despite hours worked increasing.

[zombocom]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Nope, a train mechanic didn't go to college for four years.

I didn't say a train mechanic went to college for four years. Getting a B.A is easy, it's just as easy as going to high school.

[wave9x]

By taxing the general population more and more to support ever-more-posh pay and benefits for government workers, we are creating a class system with the government elite at the top and the general population at the bottom.

[zombocom]

Originally Posted by wave9x

By taxing the general population more and more to support ever-more-posh pay and benefits for government workers, we are creating a class system with the government elite at the top and the general population at the bottom.

There is a very large group on top of us all, that has been siphoning off wealth for decades.

In 1976, the top 1% owned 20% of all the wealth, today the top 1% owns 36% of all the wealth.

Meanwhile, salaries in the U.S have fallen 4% in that time, despite the fact that our GDP has increased quite a bit sense then.

Which means that not only have a select few enjoyed the benefits of ALL economic growth in the last 40 years, but in fact, they have taken so much that we now make less money than we did 40 years ago.

But hey, let's complain about a BART worker with an average salary of 65,000, because that's clearly the issue.

I just have to ask - why aren't people fighting for better pay? Why are they instead trying to drag others down with them? That is why unions are important.

[PrincessoftheCape]

Originally Posted by zombocom

But hey, let's complain about a BART worker with an average salary of 65,000, because that's clearly the issue.

Not to take your sarcasm literally but...

Okay, yes, let's do that.

Because it makes a lot of sense to.

[neutrino78x]

Originally Posted by zombocom

A room in an apartment - wow, so in 40 years we went from the middle class being able to buy a house, to a room in an apartment is good enough for you!

No, our disagreement is that you think an entry level job should give you a middle class salary.

People would be less upset about these BART jobs if they required bachelor's degrees or at least highly skilled workers.

But if it doesn't even require a bachelor's degree it shouldn't pay more than $30,000 or so. You guys have train operators and station agents that make $60,000.

You can get six figures as a train engineer (train operator) at Union Pacific after you've worked there for many years. But they don't just sit in the cockpit waiting to press the brake in an emergency.

In the military, a job where you sit and potentially press a button in an emergency, and have no other duties for the extent of your watch, would be done by someone E-3 or below, so about $1500 a month or less.

You know, maybe people should be less concerned with government workers making middle class wages, and more concerned with why wages in the private sector have been decreasing for the last 30 years despite hours worked increasing.

Well, the problem is that these overpaid government servants are refusing to perform their duties. Their refusal is causing great difficulty in the lives of people who make less than they do (not the 1%). If they didn't strike, it would still be an issue because they are overpaid in the context of the education required for the job, but it wouldn't be as much of an issue as it is now that they are complaining that they aren't paid enough.

I don't think wages at Union Pacific or Google have been decreasing for 30 years. UP has a union and Google pays a lot of money for people who have more education than a train operator at BART. I support unions for employees of private enterprises.

[zombocom]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

I don't think wages at Union Pacific or Google have been decreasing for 30 years. UP has a union and Google pays a lot of money for people who have more education than a train operator at BART. I support unions for employees of private enterprises.

I'd be highly impressed if you could give me a 30 year history of wages at Google.

I couldn't tell you about individual companies, I can only tell you that wages in the U.S have been, and are still going down.

Yes, Google pays a lot more money for their educated employees than BART pays it's employees. Starting salary for a compsci/engineer around here is north of 75k.

A train operator at BART making 60k a year has likely reached top step, that's it for the rest of his career.

However, yes, an entry level job should still be middle class (middle class is a range of income), we're not talking about McDonalds, this is a job that people are expected to have for their entire career.

There is your problem, though - without a college degree a job shouldn't pay more than 30k? I find that interesting, because I would have thought you'd feel that a job's wages should be commensurate with the work required, not simply the piece of paper in hand.

However, back in the 50's, a person with a blue-collar job working in a plant could have a middle class life - and now you think anyone without a college degree should live in poverty.

No offense, but that's just bizarre.

[neutrino78x]

Originally Posted by zombocom

I'd be highly impressed if you could give me a 30 year history of wages at Google.

IBM, then. People with a BS in computer science have always made a lot of money and probably always will. I think IBM's entry level salary for someone with a BS in computer science is like $70k or more.

So if you serve the government and you don't have a bachelor's, you shouldn't expect anything near that. Especially if you have an unskilled job like BART train operator or station agent.

A train operator at BART making 60k a year has likely reached top step, that's it for the rest of his career.

Top step for a BART train operator should be more like $30k to put it more in line with other public services, especially the military. I heard BART doesn't even use the step system because that doesn't allow for overtime.

BART Train Operator requires a high school diploma and a few weeks of training.

However, yes, an entry level job should still be middle class (middle class is a range of income), we're not talking about McDonalds, this is a job that people are expected to have for their entire career.

Well, if it doesn't require much skill and it doesn't require much education, I don't see why one would except to get much salary, especially not if it is government service.

However, back in the 50's, a person with a blue-collar job working in a plant could have a middle class life - and now you think anyone without a college degree should live in poverty.

Well, you don't have to be able to own your own home in order to avoid poverty, and a plant job in the 50s would be a job with a private enterprise, not the government.

BART is the government.

Ford is not. GM is not. Tesla is not.

Tesla will pay you $16/hour to start in their assembly line making electric cars at NUMMI in Fremont. They are not unionized. I would love to work there, and have applied a few times, but not everybody can get a given job.

[zombocom]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

IBM, then. People with a BS in computer science have always made a lot of money and probably always will. I think IBM's entry level salary for someone with a BS in computer science is like $70k or more.

So if you serve the government and you don't have a bachelor's, you shouldn't expect anything near that. Especially if you have an unskilled job like BART train operator or station agent.

Top step for a BART train operator should be more like $30k to put it more in line with other public services, especially the military. I heard BART doesn't even use the step system because that doesn't allow for overtime.

BART Train Operator requires a high school diploma and a few weeks of training.

Well, if it doesn't require much skill and it doesn't require much education, I don't see why one would except to get much salary, especially not if it is government service.

Well, you don't have to be able to own your own home in order to avoid poverty, and a plant job in the 50s would be a job with a private enterprise, not the government.

BART is the government.

Ford is not. GM is not. Tesla is not.

Tesla will pay you $16/hour to start in their assembly line making electric cars at NUMMI in Fremont. They are not unionized. I would love to work there, and have applied a few times, but not everybody can get a given job.

Hey, you want people be poor so the really rich can be that much richer. that's your choice, I just think anyone who works should be able to have a decent life, and shouldn't be consigned to poverty. We were able to do it in the past (give blue collar workers a middle class life), in Germany auto workers make twice what autoworkers in the U.S do, so clearly it can be done.

It's not like everyone can go out and get a B.S and have a starting salary of 80k.