Does anyone want to move FROM the Bay Area? (San Francisco: middle-class, sale)
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I noticed two "cottages" in San Bruno, for 300k, and another one for $400k, recently. Prices in San Bruno have dropped substantially from 2yrs ago, especially condos (Can you believe 490sqft studios sold for $300k back then?). But yes they are still very high for the majority of people, about the only neighborhoods for SFHs in the peninsula people will find somewhat affordable at this point would be the "bad" neighborhoods in Redwood City, and East Palo Alto.
And let's not forget that condos on the Peninsula tend to come with pretty high HOA Fees.
What we are seeing are SF prices and living down on the Peninsula for all but inhertied wealth, i.e. get roomies, work for high paying firm, save, find high-salaried mate, get married, either cash-in or make it huge.
Fellow Cardinal? Imagine how difficult for HS & JC grads, CSU grads...
Born in Fremont - I've lived in the Bay Area every day of my 38 years. Just bought a beautful house on 1.2 acres in Austin, Texas for under 250k and I cannot get the hell out of California fast enough.
Sadly, it just lost it's appeal for me many years ago. Too expensive, too crowded, too unfriendly, too much immigration, and just way too much opportunity elsewhere.
Maybe coming home once or twice a year will make it shine a little more once again.
Wow, what a depressing thread. My fiancee and I are moving to the bay area in less than six months. After reading this it seems that we are moving into a nicely laid trap of cioppino's and crab chowder . We love the city and are planning to live in the east bay. Are we making a mistake?
Triphoppa,
If you can easily afford the Bay Area (emphasis on "easily"), you will enjoy it. Its offerings still repersent the best balance of any major metro area for those who can afford it. A friend of mine says this of Lamborghini cars, "You do not buy one if you can afford to do so. You buy one because you can easily afford six." I think of living in the SFBA the same way. You and fiancee want to be making $200K plus in relatively relaxed jobs before you can really enjoy the Bay Area. Why? At a minimum, you will want to max 401K plus IRA--that is $41K of after tax savings--not easy in a high tax state (upper state bracket is almost 10%) and a place where the cost of living is so ridiculous. Also, many do not have the time to enjoy the free and natural beauty of the area due to insane work schedules that effectively approach 70-80 hours/week. SO for many of us, in comparison to the lifestyle it used to offer, there is no comparison.
If you and fiancee are young (say <25) and ambitious and rich, you will love it. But if you have lived around the world and around the block a bit and don't live off of a trust fund, you will question its value. If a trust fund baby, join your buddies in Los Gatos.
It is a "world metro area" and depending on what you seek, deserves to be compared to other global hot spots: Hong Kong, Dubai, Manhattan, Miami, London, etc. How you rank these is really a function of your objectives? I think if you are rich enough, it can compare favorably depdnding on what you want.
However, if you are seeking a domestic life and a place to raise kids, then I think there are far better places for your marriage and your family.
If you are both ambitous in your career, then in the US, NYC and the SFBA and perhaps Miami are your best bets.
As for the Easy Bay per se. although I always feel less centered when out there (weird to see SF from the East), the East Bay has some great spots (Berkeley Hills, Albany, Claremont, Montclair). But it is also has a number of frightening places (parts of Richmond, Oakland, etc.) and among the worst run city governments in the US (some crazy internal politics, think Detroit--and SF is no better--trust me). Do your research! However, with so many interstates, I always felt claustrophic out East, as just about anywhere you are bounded on all sides. Growing up on the SF Peninsula, it was wonderful, hvaing but a 15-20min drive to the Coast and all those square miles of lightly used beaches and parks.
So use it for what it is. Hopefully now will prices coming down in some places, you get a reasonable deal in terms of rent or purchase price. But as the previous reader suggestsed, the fall in prices has really only been in marginal areas. For the decent neighborhoods , prices and rents increased 10% last year! Amazing, no?
I would guess that for those of us who have moved away in our 30s and 40s, I doubt many would return. None of my friends have. And live a lifestyle that would be impossible in the Bay Area in their line of work. Those who bounce back tend to be younger....and richer...so filter your advice carefully and conditionally. If you are of middle class background, taking advice from a BMW-SUV driving, soccer Mom at a Starbucks in the middle of the work day would be...uh...misleading...
You know, If I won the lottery, I would consider buying anew. Consider it. Once you get above $2.5 million in housing price, the SFBA starts to offer decent value for the whole family (kids working in SIlicon Valley but livign at home; universities, etc.). But it would be an investment home, as for $2.5 I could live in an amazing palace in Northern Idaho. But hey, to offer my kids a SV crash pad next to Stanford? That would be nice.
But without that lottery, I cannot see how a HH income of $100K can sustain you? Two great "poor" friends were college teachers at a local JC. They bought and are now pretty stable and happy. But they bought when prices were 25-30% cheaper and the cost of living 10% cheaper. Now? Fugeddhaboutit. And they were making $120K/year....
Wow, this IS the most bitter thread I've ever read on any board dedicated to a comparably expensive and popular area to live. Hearing you all one may think that SFBA is populated exclusively by millionaires, homeless and gang-bangers. I don't think it's quite as simple, the equation has many variables.
There are lots of people in SF living in rather inexpensive by today's standards rent-control apartments. In fact some of them are paying so little for housing that even if they want to move elsewhere outside of Bay Area some of them have to pay MORE and not less. Almost every multifamily property for sale in SF no matter the size has at least one rent control unit with outrageously cheap rent. So, the government of SF is doing something to help keep these people in their cheap units and help make the city affordable for lower income and older folks.
There are also lots of people who have lived in SFBA for many many years, many were born here. They own houses that may now fetch 1 mil but they bought them for 200K over 10 years ago. The building where my mother has her rent control lovely apartment was for sale for 300K in 1994, now it would fetch over a million. Would people who own it complain about cost of living? I don't think so even with rent control apartments. There ARE people in SF that are living their American Dream in their good size single family houses with two car garages. If you think backyards in SF are tiny, then go to some new subdivisions in Vegas and check out those 'patios'.
Most people griping about cost of living and how much it sucks to be here just got the short end of the stick. They moved when it was already expensive, or they made a mistake buying in the 'up and coming' areas (like one comedian pointed out - 'drug infested battlefields'). I am genuinely sorry and I feel for you, we've made this same mistake with another city, so now my motto is 'you get what you pay for'. But it doesn't mean it's all as dim here for EVERYONE as you describe.
Personally, I can be bitter too. I've lived here in my youth years, barely affording the then cheap rent and moved out when I wanted to buy a place to live. I was trying to chase the dream of coming back to SF many years now. And bitterly, the more money I'd make the higher and higher (disproportionately to my income of course) SF prices would climb and the dream of living in a nice single family house in a nice area with the garage was floating further and further away.
Did I find happiness in other areas of US? Um, no. They did all have something to offer and they were nice and affordable even with a good chunk of real estate appreciation. They are still not the areas I liked. I found other places that I liked as much as Bay Area, Seattle is one of them. But they have same problems. Seattle real estate is really expensive for those of you dreaming to cut your costs, it's strange for me to hear some of you dreaming of settling there.. If you want a decent SFR within city limits prepare to pay very close to Bay Area prices. Suburbs are not much better either and traffic is just as bad.
I am not going to say that living in NC, or Texas or Vegas doesn't have it's good things. I've tried a couple of them, but keep coming back to SF, DC, Seattle.
There is no miracle out there for those who bitterly gripe about cost of living. If many people want to live in a certain area and find it desirable, they'd keep moving there and bringing their cash and driving prices up and up.
Even with all that said, I am still on the fence moving to Bay Area, after being around a few places I find it still a little overpriced, the ratio of rent to mortgages is one indicator. The weather is not my favorite. One of the posters pretty accurately described living the in the west end, that's my exact feeling as well, too cold, too foggy and windy. Another thing, is I believe the city went downhill a bit since the mid 90s. Or is it just my impression? Public transport on some routes is looking a bit more dangerous to me, so I drive every time I visit, or maybe I am just getting 'soft' He he
The unfortunately fact is that real estate is a voting machine. If more people want to live in an area, the prices go up. If fewer people want to live in an area, prices go down. Perhaps if we keep putting up posts that say how much SF sucks people would be detered to move here or that people would move out, which would bring down the prices of housing and cost of living.
Wow, what a depressing thread. My fiancee and I are moving to the bay area in less than six months. After reading this it seems that we are moving into a nicely laid trap of cioppino's and crab chowder . We love the city and are planning to live in the east bay. Are we making a mistake?
No, you're not making a mistake.
Go for it and enjoy the City and the Bay Area. I'm assuming you're in your 20's or 30's. I'm in my early 40's and I grew up in San Francisco, from grade school. I do not read bitterness in any of the preceding posts, just people's personal truths. Which is true for me too. The San Francisco Bay Area has changed considerably over the years, like most places do and it can be challenging to convey this to someone who doesn't remember the "feeling". It's just not there anymore, particularly the community vibe which transcended culture, race, color, social class you name it. It was different in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's. It just was.
In reality, SF may be very good for you triphoppa. I think what you may be hearing and I'm totally speculating here based on my own experience, is a wish on the part of folks in my age range that if they knew then what they know now about purchasing property, how far their dollar would go in other states....they may have made different choices. Not necessarily better or worse, just different. The beauty of SF has a way of seducing you in your youth. It really does and it really is an amazing place to live and discover yourself. But over time everything goes through a metamorphosis. The affordability of rent and purchasing property which was still high pre-1995 dot com boom time, but not ridiculously so may have factored in as well. There was a tendency to believe that things would get better. Whether or not they have is a subjective thing I believe and will vary depending on who you ask.
I also think, even though we may not want to admit it, climbing the ladder in years changes you and what you value as important. Where I spend my personal time is very important to me now. When I was 25 I could work 100 hours a week no problem. Now? I could still work 100 hours a week, but forget it! No desire to do this nor do I have a desire to party or even eat out that often. There are other areas that some will glorify, condemn or not even really be concerned about that are all part of the SF experience. For example, parking, homelessness, crime, intelligent & aware people (for the most part ;-), great restaurants showcasing most global cuisine, the live music scene, shady politicians, economic and social problems....etc. Who you are determines how you're going to live in a place and how you will experience it. It was just time for me to move, but SF is still a great city to me. Experiencing the solitude of a rural environment doesn't seem so foreign to me anymore and in fact, I welcome it. I had to laugh at the comments about hearing neighbors take care of their personal hygiene whether you own your home or rent. It's a fact of life in the Bay Area and in SF. The walls are thin, unless you're blessed with a well insulated dwelling. After a certain amount of time and if you've visted friends and family out of state or in other towns and their homes are not right on top of each other, you come to understand that it's not necessarily normal to clearly hear your next door neighbor's phone conversation when they're on the opposite side of their own home. Or what they might be doing at any time during the day. And vice versa, they can hear you too. lol. I personally couldn't do it anymore and this is why I moved. And actually, all joking aside, the space issue factored in tremendously in addition to the financial advantages I've experienced since moving.
If you asked me five years ago if I would leave San Francisco, I would've looked at you cross eyed. But I did leave not too long ago and I live in the suburbs of another northern california town. I like it and it works for me -- for now. I can no longer handle the urban city life 24 hours a day. I've changed too. If I were to challenge what I wrote above, I would also ask the question has SF changed so much or have I changed as well? I think it's a little of both.
Last edited by redwoodlvr; 04-06-2008 at 06:40 PM..
Wow, this IS the most bitter thread I've ever read on any board dedicated to a comparably expensive and popular area to live. Hearing you all one may think that SFBA is populated exclusively by millionaires, homeless and gang-bangers. I don't think it's quite as simple, the equation has many variables.
There are lots of people in SF living in rather inexpensive by today's standards rent-control apartments. In fact some of them are paying so little for housing that even if they want to move elsewhere outside of Bay Area some of them have to pay MORE and not less. Almost every multifamily property for sale in SF no matter the size has at least one rent control unit with outrageously cheap rent. So, the government of SF is doing something to help keep these people in their cheap units and help make the city affordable for lower income and older folks.
There are also lots of people who have lived in SFBA for many many years, many were born here. They own houses that may now fetch 1 mil but they bought them for 200K over 10 years ago. The building where my mother has her rent control lovely apartment was for sale for 300K in 1994, now it would fetch over a million. Would people who own it complain about cost of living? I don't think so even with rent control apartments. There ARE people in SF that are living their American Dream in their good size single family houses with two car garages. If you think backyards in SF are tiny, then go to some new subdivisions in Vegas and check out those 'patios'.
Most people griping about cost of living and how much it sucks to be here just got the short end of the stick. They moved when it was already expensive, or they made a mistake buying in the 'up and coming' areas (like one comedian pointed out - 'drug infested battlefields'). I am genuinely sorry and I feel for you, we've made this same mistake with another city, so now my motto is 'you get what you pay for'. But it doesn't mean it's all as dim here for EVERYONE as you describe.
Personally, I can be bitter too. I've lived here in my youth years, barely affording the then cheap rent and moved out when I wanted to buy a place to live. I was trying to chase the dream of coming back to SF many years now. And bitterly, the more money I'd make the higher and higher (disproportionately to my income of course) SF prices would climb and the dream of living in a nice single family house in a nice area with the garage was floating further and further away.
Did I find happiness in other areas of US? Um, no. They did all have something to offer and they were nice and affordable even with a good chunk of real estate appreciation. They are still not the areas I liked. I found other places that I liked as much as Bay Area, Seattle is one of them. But they have same problems. Seattle real estate is really expensive for those of you dreaming to cut your costs, it's strange for me to hear some of you dreaming of settling there.. If you want a decent SFR within city limits prepare to pay very close to Bay Area prices. Suburbs are not much better either and traffic is just as bad.
I am not going to say that living in NC, or Texas or Vegas doesn't have it's good things. I've tried a couple of them, but keep coming back to SF, DC, Seattle.
There is no miracle out there for those who bitterly gripe about cost of living. If many people want to live in a certain area and find it desirable, they'd keep moving there and bringing their cash and driving prices up and up.
Even with all that said, I am still on the fence moving to Bay Area, after being around a few places I find it still a little overpriced, the ratio of rent to mortgages is one indicator. The weather is not my favorite. One of the posters pretty accurately described living the in the west end, that's my exact feeling as well, too cold, too foggy and windy. Another thing, is I believe the city went downhill a bit since the mid 90s. Or is it just my impression? Public transport on some routes is looking a bit more dangerous to me, so I drive every time I visit, or maybe I am just getting 'soft' He he
"There are lots of people in SF living in rather inexpensive by today's standards rent-control apartments. In fact some of them are paying so little for housing that even if they want to move elsewhere outside of Bay Area some of them have to pay MORE and not less. Almost every multifamily property for sale in SF no matter the size has at least one rent control unit with outrageously cheap rent. So, the government of SF is doing something to help keep these people in their cheap units and help make the city affordable for lower income and older folks."
Kt13 - Gov't intervention is part of the reason why housing is so expensive for the rest of us. Rent control and property tax laws here create perverse incentives that penalize people who move. Strict zoning in the suburbs artificially limits the supply of housing and drives prices up. This will always be an expensive city, but these gov't interventions make it WAY more so. And as a former SF renter I can tell you that many of the people who benefit the most from rent control are rich people living in beautiful pre-war apt houses in Pac Hts.
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