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First, flakiness is not exclusive to CA. People on the Seattle forum complain about that a lot, too, and their complaints aren't restricted to one gender. Personally, I've never known anyone in the Bay Area or Seattle who was flaky, so clearly, YMMV.
What do you mean by "it turns women into men"? Please clarify.
It means that women who are overly independent, career focused, so-called go-getters etc. are viewed as less attractive by many men (myself included) b/c some of those traits make them less feminine in our eyes (which is what we're attracted to). I've found these characteristics quite often in women that work as sales reps. In my eyes, a career as a sales rep is a red flag/something to keep in mind, but not a deal breaker.
IMO, the 'turns women into men' was a poor choice of words but the idea is that some women come off as less feminine (and more masculine) by virtue of some of these characteristics.
Are you expecting something in return for that "nice dinner" on the 3rd date?
I think if you want a woman to know you are interested in her, a coffee won't do it. How about a nice lunch where you can have extended conversation? There are likely to be fewer distractions, and you don't look like a cheapskate.
If a woman expects me to buy her dinner (or doesn't offer to split it), she's not my type. This isn't 1950's Tulsa, relationships are equal partnerships. Sure, I'll lift heavy things and fix stuff, but we're in it together financially.
I guess if formal dinner dating is what you're into, eventually you'll find a girl who is into that sort of thing too and you two may hit it off.
Personally I much preferred dates where we are on a nature walk, much more relaxed, quiet atmosphere where you can actually talk to the other person and not be interrupted by the waiter every 5 minutes or trying to talk over the noise of the restaurant.
The way you frame and think about dating ("formal dates") seems to be the problem. A casual suggestion of coffee/a drink/a juice is the much more common way of first getting to know someone here than a "formal date" where you go to a nice dinner. A nice dinner is a third date activity, IMO (first being coffee, second being lunch in the park or something active).
Good point. I should've been more clear. I also think that a dinner at an expensive place is way too much for first 2-3 dates. What I meant was more of a "formal meeting" or a "date". I usually do a cafe and walk (depending one weather and date's inclinations). Second date is somewhat similar, maybe a nicer place. But usually I hardly get to the 3rd date and that's the problem. So I'm trying to figure out where I keep doing it wrong.
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Originally Posted by ketch89
If a woman expects me to buy her dinner (or doesn't offer to split it), she's not my type. This isn't 1950's Tulsa, relationships are equal partnerships. Sure, I'll lift heavy things and fix stuff, but we're in it together financially.
I have no problem paying for dinner. I rarely date women that were born in US so it's expected. And no, I don't expect them to put out immediately. But of course there is a limit and it's usually clear who genuinely likes me and who's there for a free dinner after a date or two.
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
First, flakiness is not exclusive to CA. People on the Seattle forum complain about that a lot, too, and their complaints aren't restricted to one gender. Personally, I've never known anyone in the Bay Area or Seattle who was flaky, so clearly, YMMV.
I never said it was exclusive but I would say predominant, at least compared to what I experience on the East Coast. I haven't dated any women from Seattle so can't really comment on their flakiness levels.
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What do you mean by "it turns women into men"? Please clarify.
What LIS123 said more or less. They become less feminine in just about every way - a huge turn off. If I wanted to date masculine people I'd date guys.
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You're mistaken about women not needing men "in any way". Women need men for companionship, love and ultimately, sex. Women are human, and humans are social animals with a need to bond. If that's not good enough for you, then you might consider moving to a more conservative part of the country.
If that's the case they're absolutely awful at showing it. I mean really bad. I ran into several women who seemed so busy with their super important lives that it felt like they were doing me a huge favor by showing up. I also felt more than once that I'm twisting someone's arm when I invite them as I'm taking them away from something far more important. Not a good feeling.
On an related note I did notice that most women here (and I emphasize) want to be friends at first. While I understand where they're coming from it often turns out to be a huge waste of time and/or resources. To me, to become someone's true friend takes years if not decades. I've known my closest friends for 20+ years and I trust them 100% but there were tons of people that didn't make it to that level. At this rate I would have to wait literally for years to consider them my real friends. On top of that, quite often their idea of friends tends to be that I treat them like a girlfriend (ie pay for them, show them a good time, give them rides, etc) but without any sort of physical relationship aka the infamous Friend Zone. I'm very much against that.
It means that women who are overly independent, career focused, so-called go-getters etc. are viewed as less attractive by many men (myself included) b/c some of those traits make them less feminine in our eyes (which is what we're attracted to). I've found these characteristics quite often in women that work as sales reps. In my eyes, a career as a sales rep is a red flag/something to keep in mind, but not a deal breaker.
IMO, the 'turns women into men' was a poor choice of words but the idea is that some women come off as less feminine (and more masculine) by virtue of some of these characteristics.
Speak for yourself bud. I love those qualities in a woman, and I don't view those characteristics as being masculine at all. A woman who is well-educated and good at what she does is awesome. I love having deep intellectual conversations with these types of women about any topics, often about things I'm unfamiliar with. I don't mind it is if the woman is smarter than me in certain areas (or even all areas).
The last thing I'd want is to be with someone romantically who has no desire to push themselves in life or is just content to do the same things in life with no goals in mind (talk about unexciting!). Being driven doesn't necessarily mean they're married to their job, either... They can of course have many other parties outside of their job (and I prefer women that are balanced in their interests).
So, again, speak for yourself. I love the qualities of bay area women.
From what I observed living in LA/SF and then NY, I agree there is something different about the dating culture between the coasts. In CA, especially SF, a lot of my friends (I guess me too when I was single) seem to be more into the casual, fast first date. Coffee is perfect because the mood isn't too serious, there is no awkward "are you sure? I'm happy to split the check" exchange, and there isn't too much pressure to get dolled up. And you don't feel guilty if it doesn't work out, since no one spent a lot of money. Some of my friends just will not do a dinner first date. Maybe it's because there are so many more single men than women it just seems efficient? IDK.
In NY/Boston, I noticed women tend to like the "formal date," where you go to a nice restaurant and get to wear your cutest outfit. And a lot of stock is taken in how each person behaves, grooms, displays their wealth/status, etc. I'm not saying it's a bad thing at all but it seems more important there to fit a certain mold.
IMO women in SF tend to be slightly less maintenance, so that's something to consider too. They don't take the gender roles TOO seriously so on one hand that means the hook is not on you to book the nicest restaurant and have a fancy date but on the other hand that also means you're less likely to get a girl who gets mad if you don't celebrate the 1 month anniversary, get the flowers and gift every valentine's day, buy the expensive jewelry, etc.
If that's the case they're absolutely awful at showing it. I mean really bad. I ran into several women who seemed so busy with their super important lives that it felt like they were doing me a huge favor by showing up. I also felt more than once that I'm twisting someone's arm when I invite them as I'm taking them away from something far more important. Not a good feeling.
You need to get out of San Francisco, at least for a girlfriend/wife hunt. Beautiful city to visit, and for work opportunities, but not so great a place to find the kind of woman you're looking for. It's a common trend in big, alpha, posh, luxury cities: people are too distracted by careers, exploring new stuff, always looking for a better option. Women who flock to these cities tend to be less family-centric, less conventionally feminine; they define themselves more by their jobs, interests, lifestyle-ism, etc than they do by conventional concepts of gender, family, and even genuine friendships that it sounds like you're starving for. This system can work to find you a mate--if you're willing to become a sanitized, androgynous, rootless, workaholic with no concept of traditional family/community, and even then it's a broken system to meet/date/establish relationship with these people your going on these lame coffee "dates" with. You're throwing something at a wall and seeing if it sticks. I went through the same thing. Take a step back, identify what you identify with the most, then adjust your life and girl search accordingly.
Speak for yourself bud. I love those qualities in a woman, and I don't view those characteristics as being masculine at all. A woman who is well-educated and good at what she does is awesome. I love having deep intellectual conversations with these types of women about any topics, often about things I'm unfamiliar with. I don't mind it is if the woman is smarter than me in certain areas (or even all areas).
The last thing I'd want is to be with someone romantically who has no desire to push themselves in life or is just content to do the same things in life with no goals in mind (talk about unexciting!). Being driven doesn't necessarily mean they're married to their job, either... They can of course have many other parties outside of their job (and I prefer women that are balanced in their interests).
So, again, speak for yourself. I love the qualities of bay area women.
This. I don't see what the controversy's about. There are guys out there who actually want fluffheads and airheads? They want women who will be dependent on them economically, because the best they can do is an office assistant job? I wonder if a lot of those guys are from a more traditional culture, either from outside the US, or an immigrant community in the US. I don't know any guys like that. I need to be able to have an intelligent, stimulating conversation with a woman. Not just once but on a regular basis. I need to know that she has a brain and she uses it.
To each his own. But I don't see how having a good job and enjoying her work makes her less feminine. It makes her more interesting.
This. I don't see what the controversy's about. There are guys out there who actually want fluffheads and airheads? They want women who will be dependent on them economically, because the best they can do is an office assistant job? I wonder if a lot of those guys are from a more traditional culture, either from outside the US, or an immigrant community in the US. I don't know any guys like that. I need to be able to have an intelligent, stimulating conversation with a woman. Not just once but on a regular basis. I need to know that she has a brain and she uses it.
To each his own. But I don't see how having a good job and enjoying her work makes her less feminine. It makes her more interesting.
From what I observed living in LA/SF and then NY, I agree there is something different about the dating culture between the coasts. In CA, especially SF, a lot of my friends (I guess me too when I was single) seem to be more into the casual, fast first date. Coffee is perfect because the mood isn't too serious, there is no awkward "are you sure? I'm happy to split the check" exchange, and there isn't too much pressure to get dolled up. And you don't feel guilty if it doesn't work out, since no one spent a lot of money. Some of my friends just will not do a dinner first date. Maybe it's because there are so many more single men than women it just seems efficient? IDK.
In NY/Boston, I noticed women tend to like the "formal date," where you go to a nice restaurant and get to wear your cutest outfit. And a lot of stock is taken in how each person behaves, grooms, displays their wealth/status, etc. I'm not saying it's a bad thing at all but it seems more important there to fit a certain mold.
IMO women in SF tend to be slightly less maintenance, so that's something to consider too. They don't take the gender roles TOO seriously so on one hand that means the hook is not on you to book the nicest restaurant and have a fancy date but on the other hand that also means you're less likely to get a girl who gets mad if you don't celebrate the 1 month anniversary, get the flowers and gift every valentine's day, buy the expensive jewelry, etc.
Honestly none of what you describe about west coast women comes off as a negative to me. What guy doesn't want a low maintenance girl? Less pressure on things that I consider a waste of time (picking the right restaurant, having the "right" behavior, getting all made up (I prefer little to no makeup on women), awkwardness of splitting the check, etc.), and more emphasis on things that are important (do we have similar goals in life, can we have intelligent conversations, do we have similar humor, do we like to do similar things, etc.).
What is so bad about this? I get that it can come off as overly-casual, but the alternative is worse to me. I had my fill of bad (and very expensive) east coast dates, so I'd take this alternative any day.
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Women are human, and humans are social animals with a need to bond. If that's not good enough for you, then you might consider moving to a more conservative part of the country.
