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Old 09-23-2010, 01:34 AM
 
221 posts, read 202,908 times
Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Sorry, Darlin' but you're wrong again so the best you can come up with is ad hominem insults that are far from the truth and as meaningless as most of your other racist comments.

Actually, I do know what class is -- at least enough to know that you lack it. As for the rest, you must be right. After all, you obviously know all about my backfround, right?

The people on Muni are, most unfortunately, characteristic of the increasing lack of civility by ALL RACES that's so pervasive in too many parts of CA and elsewhere now. It seems to have far more to do with time and place than it does race.
No doubt, this recession, and especially the high unemployment rate coupled with the high cost of living in CA has got to be making friction all the more prevalent.

 
Old 09-23-2010, 01:35 AM
 
221 posts, read 202,908 times
Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
Hey Jmadison2,

I've already moved from SF. I now live on the east coast. I do take issue, with your statement regarding choice of cities. There are many places to live that are diverse, yet don't have high crime rates. You don't have to live in a city that's overrun with white Yuppies, to be safe.

And with regards to Oakland, yes it has a high concentration of minorities. However, it's also becoming gentrified, by affluent white Yuppies. As a result, less affluent folks in Oakland (mainly minorities), have been forced out of the city, due to escalating rents there. I know, because I used to live an Oakland, for a time.
Want to be the crime rate will go down too?

I don't doubt there are diverse places with normal crime rates, but there's a strong correlation between black and high crime rates, just as there is an equally strong correlation in the other direction. The 25 safest cities are the least black. Most hovering in around 2% black.

I can't think of a place that actually defies that correlation, though I'm sure there's a few.
 
Old 09-23-2010, 01:42 AM
 
221 posts, read 202,908 times
Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
I sincerely hope you didn't mean it to sound this way, but it sounds as if you're saying that if an area has a high black population then it's only natural that the crime rate will be high. It's not as simple as that. When a segment of the population is marginalized and/or has been for so long, it will do what it can to survive even if it means crime. It's an unfortunate cycle and some of the places on that list have done a horrible job at fully interlarding their societies to this day.
It's exactly what I'm illustrating.

Sorry but I don't by your theory. Detroit had some of the best paying jobs for low skilled labor ever. And it's still always been crappy. And it's majority black, so who runs the gov't there?

By most measures, black = a higher problem rate as expressed as a percentage... in any income group, anywhere in the world. Including places where whitey isn't. Many places in Africa surely illustrate this.

Based on the data, white flight appears justified. Seems blacks in the U.S. went from being the most oppressed to the biggest problem group.

I'm sure folks will chime in with all sorts of explanations, but bottom line is the same, other poor groups don't seem to exhibit the same rate of problems.
 
Old 09-23-2010, 01:52 AM
 
221 posts, read 202,908 times
Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
Hey Skyway31,

Here are some answers to your questions. Gentrification by affluent whites of poorer, minority neighborhoods, causes rents in those areas to rise. So, the poor minority residents, are forced to move to cheaper areas.

With regards to your question as to why are whites are more affluent (in general) than minorities, there are several reasons why. Statistically, whites have had greater access than minorities, to well-paying jobs, and quality educations. Many areas where minorities live, have bad schools. Thus, quite a few minorities don't get a quality education, that would allow them to compete in college. Even if they manage to make it to college, minorities often find paying for college, difficult (due to being from poorer households than whites). So, many minorities often wind up dropping out of college before completing their degrees, at higher rates than whites do.

Even if they manage to graduate from college, minorities still have to deal with continuing problems of racial discrimination, with regards to acquiring jobs, and promotions. During hard economic times, the unemployment rate, is always higher for minorities, than is is for for whites. Plus, and perhaps most importantly, whites typically have more assets to fall back on than minorities do, when times get tough.

Here's a link to an article that's very enlightening, regarding the increasing wealth gap, between black and white families in the US:
A $95,000 question: why are whites five times richer than blacks in the US? | World news | The Guardian
Once you read this article, I hope that it sheds some light on the issue of black and white economic disparities, that still exist in America.
So the wealth levels are different, but that doesn't explain the higher incidence of problems with blacks vis-a-vis other poor groups.

The black culture, to my eyes, just seems particularly biased toward thug behavior, disdain for education, and "workin' for da man" and all that.

And in these times I know people with advanced and even multiple degrees that are heading for broke. So this is just more excuse making for the black culture.

If blacks want to be percieved differently, they have to become different from the present culture. Or not. It's a free country to some extent.
 
Old 09-23-2010, 01:58 AM
 
221 posts, read 202,908 times
Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
Hey California Sur,

I agree that economic justice, is a HUGE problem in SF. I don't know how much racism that you've experienced in SF. In my experience, and those of many African Americans living in SF, racism was quite a problem there. So racism in SF, is indeed
a big problem for African Americans to cope with. This is yet another reason, that
shows SF is not, in reality, a bastian of liberalism.
Seriously, how liberal can someone be who isn't rich?

Poor people have to conserve to get by, hence they are going to tend to be pensive, uptight and not very liberal.

It's simply easier to be easy going when you don't have to worry about money. Given the cost of living and employment situation, doesn't surprise me that people in SF are typically going to be a little to the right where money is concerned. Even if they are a little to the left where things like drugs, same sex marriage, etc. are concerned.

Limosine liberal might be the term I'm looking for?

But that may be because it's SF, and thus people are still trying there best to jump to the top side of the class gap. Go someplace where everyone is poor, and you probably find a more (for lack of a better term) democrat liberalism in effect. Folks that are still trying to claw up, are going to be aggressive to some extent. Even if they dress like hippies, LOL!
 
Old 09-23-2010, 09:53 AM
 
1,296 posts, read 1,156,073 times
Reputation: 634
Hey Jmadison2,

I don't condone any pathologies, that exist in the black community. But I do understand, how many black youth became hopeless, since the Reagon/Bush era. During that era, job security disappeared, jobs that paid middle-class salaries (both blue and white collar) declined precipritously. Plus, most jobs that paid a living wage, disappeared from the heavily black populated inner cities. With the influx of crack into the black community in the 90s, many black youth who couldn't get jobs, saw a way to make money by selling drugs. Like I said, I don't condone pathological behavior among young blacks, but I can see why it occurs.

Blacks, whether rich or poor, will always be different from white, mainstream culture. After all, we were brought to this country in chains, and have had to deal with a culture that has always (and still does), consider us inferior to whites. And remember that, every minority in America, is, or has been, looked down on by mainstream white culture. Plus, poor whites are looked down on, by affluent whites. It's all a part of the race and class hirerarchy in the US, that still remains a HUGE problem.

Also, crime in ANY poor community (whether black, white, hispanic, etc.) is going to be higher, than in more affluent communities. In poor communities where jobs are scarce, the residents there, often turn to crime to survive. What's really needed to stop these problems, is more investment in poor communities, with regards to more jobs, affordable housing, and better quality schools. So until that happens, crime in poor communities, will continue to rise. So, it's not just a matter of changing personal values of poor blacks (or those of any color), but improving their economic circumstances and opportunities.

Then, there is STILL the very real issue, of continuing discrimination towards blacks, by whites. Those blacks who adopt mainstream values, get educated, and are law-abiding, are still the last hired first fired, in the job market. And blacks still face the fact that even if we're well-off, we're still not welcome, in many whites neighborhoods. I've enclosed a link to a book, that you might want to read. It's about how even blacks who have become successful in society, still suffer the indignities of racism:
Amazon.com: The Rage of a Privileged Class: Why Do Prosperous Blacks Still Have the Blues? (9780060925949): Ellis Cose: Books

Back to the issue of blacks in SF. It's a place where blacks will have a very hard time, getting ahead. Much better cities for blacks in general (especially if they are upwardly mobile), are Chicago, DC, Atlanta, and NYC. Though it's not the best city for blacks, even LA, is much better than SF.
 
Old 09-23-2010, 10:18 AM
 
Location: West Coast Wanderer
12,132 posts, read 10,083,830 times
Reputation: 5784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmadison2 View Post
It's exactly what I'm illustrating.

Sorry but I don't by your theory. Detroit had some of the best paying jobs for low skilled labor ever. And it's still always been crappy. And it's majority black, so who runs the gov't there?

By most measures, black = a higher problem rate as expressed as a percentage... in any income group, anywhere in the world. Including places where whitey isn't. Many places in Africa surely illustrate this.

Based on the data, white flight appears justified. Seems blacks in the U.S. went from being the most oppressed to the biggest problem group.

I'm sure folks will chime in with all sorts of explanations, but bottom line is the same, other poor groups don't seem to exhibit the same rate of problems.
Ok, well you've made your point and I know what I need to know about you.
 
Old 09-23-2010, 10:19 AM
 
Location: West Coast Wanderer
12,132 posts, read 10,083,830 times
Reputation: 5784
Quote:
The black culture, to my eyes, just seems particularly biased toward thug behavior, disdain for education, and "workin' for da man" and all that.
Welcome to my ignore list, only the third person to ever join it.
 
Old 09-23-2010, 10:27 AM
 
1,416 posts, read 1,414,041 times
Reputation: 614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmadison2 View Post
Like Detroit, Atlanta, and all the other black majority cities are "hell holes" too?

I don't know about you, but I'd rather be stuck in a "white-yuppie-souless-scum" area than Detroit any day.

Point is, the original poster was saying "white-yuppie-souless-scum" were ruining SF. Looks to me like this vid has nothing to do with "white-yuppie-souless-scum".

And, as the data I posted seems to show, there's an exceptionally strong correlation between %black and the "dangerousness" of a city. And here he have a black woman apparently starting fight (maybe, that's why I asked for some background). Classic "In yo face" culture. Exactly what causes "white flight" or "non-black-flight" to be more correct.

So given the choice, Detroit or SF, I think SF would win in the mind of any rational person, of any ethnicity.

In case you hadn't noticed it, all of the U.S. is classist, if not the whole world.

Pretty much, you are you're net worth + cash flow for all practical purposes.

Not being rich, naturally it rubs me the wrong way, but it is the fact, near as I can tell.
I made a couple strong posts suggesting as much. yet, they were swiftly deleted by a mod with zero explanation. The black woman was the one with her finger in the other woman's face, clearly more of the antagonist in that case. And, of course, she threw the first punch. My whole point was, if you asked that black woman about her behavior, she'd tell you being that way is part of her "culture". It's a stupid myth perpetuated by an ignorant segment of the black community that needs to stop. I know MANY black people who are deeply offended by other blacks suggesting being an ignorant, antagonizing ***** like the woman in this video is somehow a part of being black.

Sorry for speaking my mind.
Signed,
Bill Cosby
 
Old 09-24-2010, 01:00 AM
 
221 posts, read 202,908 times
Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
Hey Jmadison2,
I don't condone any pathologies, that exist in the black community. But I do understand, how many black youth became hopeless, since the Reagon/Bush era. During that era, job security disappeared, jobs that paid middle-class salaries (both blue and white collar) declined precipritously. Plus, most jobs that paid a living wage, disappeared from the heavily black populated inner cities. With the influx of crack into the black community in the 90s, many black youth who couldn't get jobs, saw a way to make money by selling drugs. Like I said, I don't condone pathological behavior among young blacks, but I can see why it occurs.
Same impacts hit all the other races, they aren't as pathological. Trust me, there's plenty of people of all races that are being screwed by the mess Wall Steet created for the world economy. This idea that somehow only blacks have economic problems is patent BS.

To cast it as "pathological" is an attempt to make it sound like a disease rather than a selected behavior. That's not always the case.

If it is a pathology, then the stats indicate the black community is the most pathological, worldwide, and so why wouldn't people avoid the black community?

No matter how you try to paint it, the numbers everywhere show this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
Blacks, whether rich or poor, will always be different from white, mainstream culture. After all, we were brought to this country in chains, and have had to deal with a culture that has always (and still does), consider us inferior to whites. And remember that, every minority in America, is, or has been, looked down on by mainstream white culture. Plus, poor whites are looked down on, by affluent whites. It's all a part of the race and class hirerarchy in the US, that still remains a HUGE problem.
Yes, exactly, even poor whites are looked down on. And they still don't have the pathology rate.

So what if america is a white culture? Asians have all of asia, blacks have all of africa, Native Americans pretty much still have all of South and Central America. What other non-black country has elected a black president?

All this finger pointing at whites here in america is understandable, because here, they are the founders of the country, but worldwide, the Asians, if anyone have a numerical advantage.

As you point out, blacks are different, not just here, but worldwide, just at whites can't expect everyone to like them and want to socialize with them, neither should blacks expect it, and niether should the laws force it. Bussing comes to mind. There will always be strife where such things are forced.

Of course the richy riches want us to all "be cool" in thier factories, but they don't want us in thier living rooms, LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
Also, crime in ANY poor community (whether black, white, hispanic, etc.) is going to be higher, than in more affluent communities. In poor communities where jobs are scarce, the residents there, often turn to crime to survive. What's really needed to stop these problems, is more investment in poor communities, with regards to more jobs, affordable housing, and better quality schools. So until that happens, crime in poor communities, will continue to rise. So, it's not just a matter of changing personal values of poor blacks (or those of any color), but improving their economic circumstances and opportunities.
True, but the numbers are worse among blacks, and there's no Affirmative Action for poor whites. Institutional Reverse Discrimination is how that looks to poor whites. Hence the resentment of blacks by poor whites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
Then, there is STILL the very real issue, of continuing discrimination towards blacks, by whites. Those blacks who adopt mainstream values, get educated, and are law-abiding, are still the last hired first fired, in the job market.
This is patented BS. Been my experiences, blacks are fired last to avoid the appearance of discrimination and law suits.

I've never seen a black adopt mainstream values. They just act it, and when no one is looking they revert to things like ebonics. The black culture is pretty much part of how blacks are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
And blacks still face the fact that even if we're well-off, we're still not welcome, in many whites neighborhoods. I've enclosed a link to a book, that you might want to read. It's about how even blacks who have become successful in society, still suffer the indignities of racism:
Amazon.com: The Rage of a Privileged Class: Why Do Prosperous Blacks Still Have the Blues? (9780060925949): Ellis Cose: Books
So why force it? What says there have to be blacks everywhere? Does everything have to be africanized?

I'd think if that's the case the every other race *should* be trying to keep blacks out, as matter of preserving thier own cultures! As well as thier freedom of choice.

Would anyone complain about not wanting Muslims in the neighborhood these days?

Hmm....

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
Back to the issue of blacks in SF. It's a place where blacks will have a very hard time, getting ahead. Much better cities for blacks in general (especially if they are upwardly mobile), are Chicago, DC, Atlanta, and NYC. Though it's not the best city for blacks, even LA, is much better than SF.
OK, so fine, so at least there's somewhere where whites don't constantly have to have africa crammed at them from every angle. Since there are many majority black metropolises these days, strikes me as OK.

Despite the efforts of the gov't to inject africa everywhere, like they did in Minneapolis/St. Paul with a Somali resettlment center.

What everyone needs to realize is, not everyone gets along with everyone, but everyone deserves Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness... as they individually define it. That may mean that self segregation occurs at times.

So be it, everyone needs a place to be happy.

The key is "self", as in not forced at gunpoint by law. Neither integration nor segregation should be decided that way.
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