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The grocery store we normally go to gives 10 cents off per bag if you bring your own. We use the small plastic grocery bags for trash too, and when we're running low, we just pay the 10 cents extra per bag and restock. It's really not a big deal and it still costs a lot less than buying trash bags.
Our reusable grocery bags fit about 3 times the amount that a plastic grocery bag fits. Therefore, the average family would probably need less than ten. Not 20. We're two people and rarely need more than 2 bags per grocery trip. And we cook a lot. We usually go about once per week, which I think is pretty average.
Our reusable bags were all either free or dirt cheap. A lot of companies give them out for free for promotional reasons if they're at an event. Poor people can afford free. Occasionally grocery stores will have sales and their bags will be like 50 cents. We have five different bags and the total amount we paid for our collection was less than a dollar.
When we go grocery shopping, we leave our empty reusable bags by the door. That way we remember to bring them back to the car the next time we go out, and therefore we never forget to bring them.
The thing is: Last time I checked, this ISN'T Europe.. and the U.S. defeated the English in the 1700's..
That said, stating that it "won't really impact the poor" is pretty elitist.. A canvas bag made in CHINA is going to have little impact on "saving" the enviornment, but it may help to lose more American jobs as baggers at grocery stores are cut since there isn't any merit in having someone on payroll just to put items in a canvas bag (there is No longer a need for someone to maintain and restock plastic bags).. Again, another liberal EcoNazi idea that costs American jobs..
That said, has there actually been studies on the impact of the poor and working class as a result of this? and when I say studies, I don't mean an organization that has a vested interest in passing these nanny-state type laws..
Saving the enviornment should be done with educating the public and allowing the public to make a choice NOT by taking away choices from the public by legislation..
Just a few years back, paper bags were replaced with plastic at many stores because of enviornmentalist uproar, now, when some enviornmental group gets up in arms about canvas bags, what will come next? $10.00 a bag Organic Hemp Bags? I'm betting that's not too far off..
Who ever told you that it was mandatory that supermarkets pay for your bag? What makes you entitled to get one for free? It could also be considered a courtesy.
Your overreaction to a new idea or way of looking is pretty lame. Nobody's taking your choice away..you have a choice.
Oh, and calling me "elitist" is the typical rhetorical name calling that stagnant mindsets like to use that accomplish nothing. Yes, I consider myself pretty smart..that's a good thing.
You also seem to be suggesting that if any European idea is adopted or loosely copied, then it must automatically make it a bad thing for us? The poor of California are less adaptable to change than the poor of Europe?
As for the poor, like I said, if they don't have the few extra cents for a bag, then perhaps the cashier can keep donated ones behind the counter..but please, give poor people some credit, you think they can't re-use their bags..keep a couple of 10c bags by their front door? Oh, that idea must be way complex for you to consider.
I also find it funny that you think that bringing in your own bags is going to create job losses! Wow, that's a stretch!
Firstly, a bagger can still bag a bag that you bring from home..they bag mine up just fine at Safeway. Secondly, a whole other topic but places like "Food 4 less" or other discount supermarkets etc are able to pass on savings for not having to hire baggers.. just a thought. Again, not as traumatic as you are making it sound.
And btw, several stores already have adopted a small refund for bringing in your own bag. Safeway, and now Target. So the poor can already get something back.
Who ever told you that it was mandatory that supermarkets pay for your bag? What makes you entitled to get one for free? It could also be considered a courtesy.
Your overreaction to a new idea or way of looking is pretty lame. Nobody's taking your choice away..you have a choice.
Oh, and calling me "elitist" is the typical rhetorical name calling that stagnant mindsets like to use that accomplish nothing. Yes, I consider myself pretty smart..that's a good thing.
You also seem to be suggesting that if any European idea is adopted or loosely copied, then it must automatically make it a bad thing for us? The poor of California are less adaptable to change than the poor of Europe?
As for the poor, like I said, if they don't have the few extra cents for a bag, then perhaps the cashier can keep donated ones behind the counter..but please, give poor people some credit, you think they can't re-use their bags..keep a couple of 10c bags by their front door? Oh, that idea must be way complex for you to consider.
I also find it funny that you think that bringing in your own bags is going to create job losses! Wow, that's a stretch!
Firstly, a bagger can still bag a bag that you bring from home..they bag mine up just fine at Safeway. Secondly, a whole other topic but places like "Food 4 less" or other discount supermarkets etc are able to pass on savings for not having to hire baggers.. just a thought. Again, not as traumatic as you are making it sound.
And btw, several stores already have adopted a small refund for bringing in your own bag. Safeway, and now Target. So the poor can already get something back.
Nope.. Never stated that a Supermarket had to give out FREE bags.. Quite the opposite, I stated that the EcoNazi's that are trying to push this law through should show their commitment to their enviornment by handing out these bags OR shutting up.. Put up or Shut up!
You stated that "Nobody's Taking your choice away".. Umm.. What do you call BANNING Plastic and Paper Bags? Elimination of a choice!
Also the bagger may be able to bag goods in the bag that one brings from home, but there would be LESS of a need for baggers to maintain and stock plastic bags, which would create job loss! Obviously you seem to believe that job loss is a good thing, as long as it pushes the Eco-Agenda..
When you resort to childish name calling and buzzwords created by the media to prove your points..then you kind of lose your verbal battle. (It's spelled environmentalism, btw).
Your claim about us needing/paying baggers so they can stock/maintain more bags is really quite funny.
Honestly, I've lived through an international move, the Loma Prieta, GWB, and re-learning how to drive a stick shift while driving on the opposite side of the road with four little kids in the backseat...
Bringing your own bags to the store is really not the drama/trauma your making it out to be. You just keep getting all red faced and mad over something so minimally invasive.
When you resort to childish name calling and buzzwords created by the media to prove your points..then you kind of lose your verbal battle. (It's spelled environmentalism, btw).
Your claim about us needing/paying baggers so they can stock/maintain more bags is really quite funny.
Honestly, I've lived through an international move, the Loma Prieta, GWB, and re-learning how to drive a stick shift while driving on the opposite side of the road with four little kids in the backseat...
Bringing your own bags to the store is really not the drama/trauma your making it out to be. You just keep getting all red faced and mad over something so minimally invasive.
Sounds like SOMEONE is getting "red faced" and it ain't me.. BTW: comparing the GWB Presidency to the Loma Prieta Earthquake is a pretty big stretch..
I know that folks like yourself would like for people like me to just "shut up and get in line" while laws are passed taking away freedoms and jobs.. Banning plastic bags is a slippery slope.. What will be banned or taxed next?
Also, if this was TRUE "Enviornmentalism", then there would be solutions offered to the TRUE problems facing our planet, such as overpopulation and air pollution rather than pass petty little laws based upon the personal prejudices of some enviornmental action group.. Purchasing cloth bags made in CHINA and at the expense of American workers that provide the service of bagging groceries should be a CHOICE not a mandate..
Educating people about the "horrid dangers" of plastic bags rather than berate them with regulations and taxes would be a much better, more sound method AND if Americans start buying these chinese made canvas bags or better yet, make their own bags, instead of using plastic bags, then demand for plastic bags will decline and the free market has worked.. But consumers should have CHOICES not legislation over behaviors..
Sounds like SOMEONE is getting "red faced" and it ain't me.. BTW: comparing the GWB Presidency to the Loma Prieta Earthquake is a pretty big stretch..
I know that folks like yourself would like for people like me to just "shut up and get in line" while laws are passed taking away freedoms and jobs.. Banning plastic bags is a slippery slope.. What will be banned or taxed next?
Also, if this was TRUE "Enviornmentalism", then there would be solutions offered to the TRUE problems facing our planet, such as overpopulation and air pollution rather than pass petty little laws based upon the personal prejudices of some enviornmental action group.. Purchasing cloth bags made in CHINA and at the expense of American workers that provide the service of bagging groceries should be a CHOICE not a mandate..
Educating people about the "horrid dangers" of plastic bags rather than berate them with regulations and taxes would be a much better, more sound method AND if Americans start buying these chinese made canvas bags or better yet, make their own bags, instead of using plastic bags, then demand for plastic bags will decline and the free market has worked.. But consumers should have CHOICES not legislation over behaviors..
Other, far poorer countries are stepping up also. Uganda and Bangladesh, and Kenya, dude.
You say that we should have solutions to "real" problems facing the world. I agree. So banning the overuse of plastic, which in turn strangles wildlife, clogs storm drains (which pollutes and allows for disease to fester in poor nations) AND uses thousands of barrels of oil to produce (huge pollution), a "real" problem? So this small change isn't a step in solving some of these problems?
So you see, people like you talk about solving big problems, but when changes start to be tackled through yes, legislation, then it becomes a big monstrous problem for you.
So your theory on educating folks on the perils of pollution and allowing them to choose for themselves never really inspires most people in this country to do anything voluntarily. Think texting? Think eating healthy? Think drink driving? Gee, you think that people would just educate themselves and act accordingly!
As for Americans losing jobs over the production of plastic bags..well if you haven't noticed..America isn't where products are manufactured.. Those days are, and have been over.. You can moan about it, but it's called globalization and it's not going away. The same people that complain, are the ones that shop at Wal-Mart for the good deals.
There might be ways around the jobs going overseas, but then people that think like you would probably get mad about being anti-capitalist overly regulated by the government. So you really cannot have your cake and eat it too.
So you've done a fine job of proving nothing. You've done a great job of turning one small change for the betterment of the pollution issue and created a far bigger problem out of it.
Oh and btw, you mentioned that I don't care about jobs being lost..Funny you should mention that since my husband's been out of work for a while. His whole department was relocated to India..you suppose we should heavily regulate or tax companies that do that? I didn't think so.
You say that we should have solutions to "real" problems facing the world. I agree. So banning the overuse of plastic, which in turn strangles wildlife, clogs storm drains (which pollutes and allows for disease to fester in poor nations) AND uses thousands of barrels of oil to produce (huge pollution), a "real" problem? So this small change isn't a step in solving some of these problems
Making decisions for consumers by taking away their right to choose is NOT the answer.. As stated before, Education about the "ills" of plastic bags and allowing consumers to make a choice is the answer.. If consumers decide to carry Chinese made cloth bags, great.. If they choose to MAKE their own bags, excellent.. Eventually IF the demand is no longer there, plastic bags will be phased out..
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So you see, people like you talk about solving big problems, but when changes start to be tackled through yes, legislation, then it becomes a big monstrous problem for you.
Legislating consumer choices IS a problem because it is a slippery slope.. Today it's plastic bags, tomorrow it's what kind of toilet paper an individual uses in their home.. It's the Government dictating which products people should be ALLOWED to have by taking things away.. It's Government dictating the decisions that people are allowed to make..
Let people live and if they choose to carry tote bags, more power to 'em! But to come up with laws and regulations based on theories that may or may not be true is ludicrious.
The articles that you suggested are hardly "unbiased" sources.. The British newspaper article that you point to suggests habits in the U.K. and do not represent those of the U.S... The U.S. has NOT been a part of England since the 1700's.. Also, "The Daily Green" is an eco-centric website that would hardly be an objective source of information..
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So your theory on educating folks on the perils of pollution and allowing them to choose for themselves never really inspires most people in this country to do anything voluntarily. Think texting? Think eating healthy? Think drink driving? Gee, you think that people would just educate themselves and act accordingly!
Allowing people to make choices and have the freedom to do so is one of the many great things that this country was founded upon.. To pass petty because of prejudices towards plastic bags or because "Europe is doing it", is just a way of telling people "You are too stupid to make a decision so we need Government to make it for you!".. Also, it is insulting to compare a dangerous crime like drunk driving to using a plastic bag at a grocery store to carry home your milk..
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As for Americans losing jobs over the production of plastic bags..well if you haven't noticed..America isn't where products are manufactured.. Those days are, and have been over.. You can moan about it, but it's called globalization and it's not going away. The same people that complain, are the ones that shop at Wal-Mart for the good deals.
Wal-Mart is the number 1 employer in the U.S.. whether this is a good thing or bad thing is irrelevant.. The fact is that aggressive EcoNazi policies are what kills jobs.. California is a prime example, due to unnecessary enviornmental regulations, many farmers in the Central Valley are without water this year for their crops.. As a result some counties have 40% unemployment, ALL for the "Smelt Fish", which is considered an "Endangered Species".. Many of these regulations do little for the enviornment, but are successful in putting people in the unemployment line..
BTW: The city of San Francisco professes how "Green" they are, but wants to dump it's sewage and trash in the hills of Nevada.. Where is the outrage over this?
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Oh and btw, you mentioned that I don't care about jobs being lost..Funny you should mention that since my husband's been out of work for a while. His whole department was relocated to India..you suppose we should heavily regulate or tax companies that do that? I didn't think so.
My job was outsourced to the Phillipines last year as well.. The company felt that it wasn't cost effective to do business in the U.S., particualarly in California.. I am opposed to the outsourcing of U.S. jobs, but I believe that passing "Nanny" State Enviornmental regulations are going to help put more people in the Unemployment line than it is going to "Create" jobs.. The reason WHY many companies go to overseas markets is to utilize the cheaper, better educated work force AND because of the strict enviornmental and business regulations in the U.S...
Also the bagger may be able to bag goods in the bag that one brings from home, but there would be LESS of a need for baggers to maintain and stock plastic bags, which would create job loss! Obviously you seem to believe that job loss is a good thing, as long as it pushes the Eco-Agenda..
Um... baggers only bag when they are called to bag -- the rest of the time they are stocking shelves and cleaning. Grocery stores can't afford to have two people working each checkout.
Checkers ring up and bag for the most part. Which is why they have bagging stations right at the drop zone, just past their scanner. And checkers are the ones that keep the bags stocked up at the register.
Um... baggers only bag when they are called to bag -- the rest of the time they are stocking shelves and cleaning. Grocery stores can't afford to have two people working each checkout.
Checkers ring up and bag for the most part. Which is why they have bagging stations right at the drop zone, just past their scanner. And checkers are the ones that keep the bags stocked up at the register.
It actually depends on where you shop.. Regardless of "who does what" is not the issue, the issue is that MORE jobs will be deemed unnecessary as a result..
Yeah, the BBC article..totally biased news source. I'm sure I could dig up info from many respectable news organizations, but you'd still say that they were all somehow biased. And the Republic of Ireland is not part of the UK, btw (not even the same currency). So I really don't need a history lesson here on our independence from England.
Perhaps the reasoning of all of these countries jumping on board with the idea (even the ones outside of Europe) is because it's helped?
I'm guessing you actually didn't read the reasons why Bangladesh (extreme poverty..since you've used the argument of the poor here can't afford to reuse their bags argument). During their floods, they determined that the bags were the cause of 2/3 of the country to be submerged under water. Oh, but that's far too biased for you to believe.
You haven't had one good argument against banning or lessening the use of plastic bags...besides the very tired "well it's a slippery slope where the government is telling me what to do" (paranoia)...and baggers will lose their jobs if we don't give 'em plastic bags to fill (scaremongering). Or your words "I'm PREJUDICED against plastic bags" (you've got to be kidding me).
I'm done now, you are obviously not going to be convinced..
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