Is S.F. Really Worth The Cost? C'mon -- Really? (San Francisco: mortgage, environment)

[Trident]

From a pure financial aspect. I think it would be hard pressed for anyone to argue with you. From a living standpoint. "Anywhere" Michigan compared to San Francisco, I think you'll get plenty of people saying they would still choose SF, just as you've heard in earlier postings.

Me, I tend to agree more with your financial reasoning. That would go for Boston, New York, Miami, Seattle to name a few.

[sliverbox]

All I can say is well-said Mr2007.Point taken. Perhaps a better tactic would be to not advertise the fact that much of America is actually quite nice and easily affordable. Many in SF have yet to realize this, so perhaps it would do people like you and me a world of good to keep them thinking that SF is better than everywhere else. let them have it.

[baygirl]

So what you're saying is that people in SF have a 'better' quality of life because of the weather? I've never heard so many people make claims that they CANNOT live anywhere that gets hot, humid, cold, or rainy as I've heard here in the Bay Area.

Keep in mind that I live in the midwest. I am not saying that people who live in these climates can not do things when the weather is crummy, but obviously the chances of that happening are slim (otherwise the title of "fattest cities" would not constantly go to weather challenged cities). There are motivated people wherever you go and I see those people at the gym when the weather doesn't cooperate. However, for myself, I love to hike and bike...do I bike in the rain? Absolutely not. Do I bike when it's 10 degrees?...NO. Do I bike when it's 98 degrees?...Absolutely not. Do I bike when there's 2 inches of ice covering the sidewalks and streets?...definately not! For that matter, I tend to not walk, bike, skate, jog or do much of anything else. I have some of the same fond memories that you speak of. In fact, Fall is my favorite time of the year...September to be exact. But it is short lived and then everything goes dormant by the end of October and that pretty much includes the people. We have a running joke with many of our neighbors that after November 1st, we will just plan on seeing them in May.


"I grew up in the South. I've also lived on the East Coast. Some of my best memories include doing things like chopping wood on a brisk November morning with a lite jacket on in 35 degree weather. Or taking hikes in the Appalachians on a fall day when the leaves were the color of gold. Others include jumping off of high-dives into cool water at the lake in 95 degree, 80% humidity weather then having a picnic afterwards, watching the fire flies and listening to the cicadas chirp as the sun went down. Other memories include sledding in the snow in Boston or perhaps ice skating at Christmas. I also have equally pleasant memories of being here in California in January when the weather was warm and the sun was high. Bottom line- I am no less active than I was in other places."

"Simply put- if you are an outdoors person, then you will be outdoors regardless of what the weather will be. I've had many housemates over the years here in CA- some who grew up here- who rarely if ever step outside and spent countless hours playing video games. Weather or not, couch potatoes survive as easily in all climates.

You are correct, couch potatoes do survive everywhere. I am not a couch potatoe. And I could survive here in the midwest forever in my nice house, but I don't want to survive...I want to live and I feel more alive when outside enjoying scenery as well as climate. SF may not be the only place that I can do this and we may find that you are exactly right, but the joy of living in America is that if I don't like it, I can go somewhere else.

Cost of living in my opinion is a far worse adversary to the good life. I drive home in a sea of people in the rat-race. They must work every hour of every day just to make their mortgage payments. For those that want a family, this is often put aside until they are well into their late 40's, even early 50's. If healthy weather is all that keeps people here, then that drive home with the windows down in the sun comes with a very high price tag indeed because often times that's all many ever see of it.

As for cost of living, it is very high in California and we could move out there and find that it isn't worth it, but I have lived in the midwest my whole life and I know it doesn't work for me...and I work for an airline and can fly most anywhere for free!! The truth of the matter is even though myself and my entire family can fly for free, when would we find all this time to visit places that have great weather? My husband and I both work like most people we know. Sometimes we might just have that day or that weekend (if we can coordinate schedules between soccer, track, school plays, blah blah blah). We don't usually have the time and when we do, it is a real hassle to pack up a family of five and go visit the beach or go hike somewhere...and you still have to pay for lodging!!! I do believe that cost of living can and will be a hindrance, but I've had the so called "good life" with owning a home that people ooh and aah over and at the end of the day (a long cold day...it's 36 degrees today with snow flurries) it is just a house! I can rent a home in CA for the cost of my mrtg here in the midwest. It may not be the same house, but my family will be there (maybe the close quarters will force our teenager to hang out with us )

Lastly, don't say that you CAN'T do the same things or be as happy in most types of weather. Trust me- you get used to it. If I can live in places that are humid, hot, cold, rainy, and sunny, then anyone can.

Once again, a somewhat weak reason for the astronomical prices demanded for something as simple as a house. Besides, if you already own and bought before the current boom, then naturally you won't see the severity of the situation many current future homeowners now face.[/quote]

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by sliverbox

Let's do some math. According to the bls.gov web site, the median income of a Bay Area librarian is around $49,000, which nationally is high, but not much more than the average.The median income for a librarian in TN is $39,000. In NC, it's $37,000. In TX, it's $39,500. My Aunt living in the Southeast makes around $42,000. My mom, who's also a librarian makes $47,000. Given the fact that the cost of living in CA is roughly a 4 to 1 ratio in terms of cost, the people living in any of the three above mentioned states will be doing approximately 3 times better than the equivalent librarian in CA.

Sorry, but I make more than $49K! I wasn't talking about median income, I was referring to what I actually make as a librarian for the city of SF... that statistic probably includes school librarians, who earn about 1/2 of a public or university employee (since they get 3 months of vacation & work fewer hours). I don't want to boast by printing my salary on here, but let's just say that our STARTING income is well above $49K & goes way up from there. As I said before, of course it still doesn't balance out the home prices, but it's a very good living... especially for those of us who don't want to own homes, and are happy renting for a while. I'm doing quite well, and have actually been surprised at what's left over at the end of the month. It's pretty cool, after being a poor student for so many years! I know things are different for families, but you can't discount all of us single folks either. We're still residents of this city, and our opinions are just as relevant as yours.

I myself am married. So are many of my friends. NONE of us own a home even though many of us are making 6 figure incomes. Generically assuming that having a dual income and a marriage means instant homeownership is sort of a false assumption. It really boils down to one thing: money, and how much you have. Now I can understand if you have "money coming to you" as you mentioned,( many in the Bay Area do) but all in all- it takes an insane amount of money to get what people in most other states can get for way easier and with less sacrifice.Sure- me and my wife could squeeze into something- but it would mean we would be turned into mindless work-zombies just paying off the mortgage. Also- if your librarian friends "own" their homes, then either ask them when they bought, or what crazy loans they took out. If they bought in the last 4 years and live off of a librarian salary, the they likely took out one of those wonderful IO/ARM loans that so many people here did ( over 60%) that's causing all the foreclosures to start happening once they reset. If they bought before, then they bought before the boom which ran the prices up 200% in 3 years. When people mention real estate today, they're talking about today, not 2002. Just 5 years ago, the story was entirely different.

Once again, all you can talk about is home ownership... I understand your frustration, since I grappled with that before deciding to stay in SF. But honestly, it's not the only part of life, and I'd rather be happy on a daily basis. One day I'll worry about buying a home, and who knows what I will decide at that point... but for now, I'm living comfortably and don't have any complaints - other than our annoying traffic, LOL. As for my friends/family who own homes, most are doing just fine, but I don't exactly ask to see their bank statements. I do know my sister & brother-in-law aren't in debt, and are actually in the market for a bigger house right now (since they're expecting a baby in September ). Granted, she's a lawyer & he's a well-paid sales manager... but they don't exactly make millions, and I haven't heard them complain about debt or major financial struggles.

You're right. I can't change the way that anyone feels. But there are people in Arkansas that feel just as strongly about where they live as you feel about living here. There are people living in Alaska that think the weather is fantastic.

I hope they are happy, and I'm sincerely happy for them, wherever they might live. I'd never try to knock someone down, or call them crazy/stupid/etc. for liking Arkansas and Alaska (gorgeous state!!). As I mentioned before, I've lived in 4 states, approx. 10 cities, and have traveled all over the world... so I know what else exists, and only a few other cities have impressed me enough to live there - Portland, Seattle, Vancouver (Canada), London, Amsterdam, and a few others. We all have our preferences and priorities, and I'm just annoyed when people try to talk me out of them. Can't help what I love! I am really sorry you don't like the Bay Area, but I'd wish you the best of luck wherever you do decide to live... just as you can't change my love for this city, I won't try to change your negative feelings about it.

So in conclusion, we all have different opinions on what is important to us. I have my reasons, and you have yours. There's obviously something here that makes you want to stay and pay for it, no matter how much it costs. You seem to fit the bill of many metro type people who need to be entertained, party, and intertwine an area as part of your personality while I myself much prefer coming home and relaxing with my wife, working out in the shop, or taking a quite walk around the neighborhood.My 'place' could be anywhere USA.Neither of us are wrong in what we do,or how we live but it means that what we do in our lives is greatly affected on how easy our chosen lifestyles can be attained in this area. I have my own reasons for falling out of love with the Bay Area.You have yours for adoring it. Perhaps in 5 years we can pat each other on the back and be in places that make us both equally content. good luck to you.

LOL... if my friends knew you called me a "partier", they'd laugh really hard! I used that as an example in my last post, but honestly I've been to a club/bar exactly ONCE since moving to the city - and maybe 2-3 times during my 5 years back in the Bay Area. So no, I'm not the type you'd assumed, but I do try to enjoy what SF has to offer. For the most part, I work 9-10 hours, come home to pick up the dog, go run some errands & stop by the dog-park, and then "veg" at home until it's time for bed. On the weekends I enjoy spending time with friends & family, doing normal stuff (movies, dinner, shopping, etc.), usually on the Peninsula where they all live. But I love having the opportunity to do interesting things, like last weekend when I attended an Expo at the Cow Palace... and on our sunnier days, I might go to Ocean Beach, Pacifica, Haight, or one of my other favorite spots. So no, I don't NEED the excitement, and I did quite well in the smaller towns where I've lived. It's just nice to be back in a vibrant city, where I have the option of either staying home or taking advantage of SF... I've lived the "slower life", and personally am looking forward to being a city girl again! I do wish you luck as well, and hopefully you're understanding my point-of-view to some degree.

[gizmo980]

OMG... did they finally add hyperlinks?? How fabulous!

[sliverbox]

Keep in mind that I live in the midwest. I am not saying that people who live in these climates can not do things when the weather is crummy, but obviously the chances of that happening are slim (otherwise the title of "fattest cities" would not constantly go to weather challenged cities). There are motivated people wherever you go and I see those people at the gym when the weather doesn't cooperate. However, for myself, I love to hike and bike...do I bike in the rain? Absolutely not. Do I bike when it's 10 degrees?...NO. Do I bike when it's 98 degrees?...Absolutely not. Do I bike when there's 2 inches of ice covering the sidewalks and streets?...definately not! For that matter, I tend to not walk, bike, skate, jog or do much of anything else. I have some of the same fond memories that you speak of. In fact, Fall is my favorite time of the year...September to be exact. But it is short lived and then everything goes dormant by the end of October and that pretty much includes the people. We have a running joke with many of our neighbors that after November 1st, we will just plan on seeing them in May.

The fact that you personally CANNOT ride your bike in 98 degrees, hike when it is 10 degrees, or do any other kind of physical activity based merely on the weather is your choice. The fact of the matter is that there are enormous amounts of people that can and do. I know that for me personally, I actually LOVE hiking in bad weather. I used to hike all over NC in the mountains. The fact that it rained with regularity in the summer in certain topographical levels was a given... so you prepared for it. So do people like Lance Armstrong fro Texas- the world's most famous bicyclist who undeniably is capable of biking not only with cancer, but in the 90+ degree Texas heat. If the weather prevents you from doing the things that you love, then that's kind of sad. People are highly adaptable.

As far as "fat cities", well, this goes along with the general labeling I always hear as tangible arguments as to why you shouldn't go here or there as supported by general sometimes stereotypical bias that gets projected onto other metros while upholding torches above other places that are also personified with stereotypical hype such as: "progressiveness, diversity, culture, and so on" There are fat people in Texas. Quite a few actually. Does that mean everyone is fat? Does that mean you would become fat if you lived there? Are fat people bad? See- these kinds of generalizations seldom represent the entire picture and lumps the population into a whole, which ironically goes against the very idea of being "diverse". As far as diversity- yes, the BA has diversity... but nor anymore than I've seen in other metros like Nashville and Atlanta.

What I'm trying to say here is that the BA is not anymore special than anywhere else in that it has it's own unique characteristics and people... just like everywhere else. We are all unique individuals and can do whatever we want. Where we live should have no impact on what we can achieve. Perhaps that's why I find it so silly that there are actually people out there right now so eager to shell out 700k for a tiny little house in need of repairs when they can do the same for far better in about 70% of the country.

Trust me- I too was one of those sparkly-eyed "oh... the BA is sooo wonderful and diverse!" people for years. It took me a long time to actually research and learn what life could be like and is like elsewhere to realize that something was wrong with the picture here.

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by sliverbox

Trust me- I too was one of those sparkly-eyed "oh... the BA is sooo wonderful and diverse!" people for years. It took me a long time to actually research and learn what life could be like and is like elsewhere to realize that something was wrong with the picture here.

I'm curious, where else have you lived? You keep talking about how life can be better somewhere else, but I don't remember you mentioning having lived anywhere else... maybe I missed that detail, but I've been there/done that, and it's not all rosey & perfect outside of the Bay Area. Research can only tell you so much, until you've actually experienced life somewhere. Let's go through where I've lived....

Maryland: Hot & sticky in the summer with enormous bugs, cold and often snowy in the winter; scenery bores me (too flat!), cultural activities lacking outside of DC, lots of "rednecks" in parts. Positives (for me) are the strong Jewish community and proximity to DC, where real estate is quickly reaching SF levels. Philadelphia, where I lived briefly as a teen, is pretty similar to the list for MD - plus very high crime in the part where I was.

Oregon: Rain, rain, and more rain... I love a good downpour/storm, but even I started to get depressed after a while! Absolutely no Jewish community outside of Portland, and even theirs is pretty pathetic - you wouldn't believe some of the ignorant statements I got up there. Positives are cost of real estate and gorgeous scenery.

Lake Tahoe: Never know when it's gonna snow, even in the middle of summer... professional jobs are practically impossible to find, especially in my field (I think they have maybe 3-5 libraries in the whole region), and there's no real college anywhere nearby, which is why I left. Also no Synagogue to speak of, aside from a teeny-tiny one on the South Shore. Plus those tourists invade the place like locusts, to the point where it takes 30 minutes to drive down the street. Positives include the amazing scenery, snow to a point, small-town mentality, and how quiet it is during the off-season.

Stockton: Ugh, what can I say?? Blistering hot weather in the summer, extremely high crime rates (gangs, drugs, murders, etc.), economically depressed, lack of good jobs, no Jews, no scenery or downtown skyline, and more. Positives include my alma mater (UOP), cheaper housing, yummy fruit & veggie stands, and proximity to SF and Lake Tahoe.

[baygirl]

I want to first say that when I refer to "fattest city", I was referring to the report that they come out with in the fitness magazines every year. It isn't just based on size of the person, it is based on availability of fitness, access to healthy food options and some other things that I can't recall. I was simply making a point that while you have pointed out all these exceptions to the norms (Lance Armstrong), people are indeed affected by the weather in more ways than they realize.
Please also note that I said there are surely other places that could fall into the "beautiful and inspiring" category. I hear that North Carolina is very nice and people love it there. In fact, I've heard it called the most beautiful state there is. (I'm limited in my moving choices to places where my husband has found viable employment in his chosen specialty) We currently live in a place where there are few hills, let alone mountains. The largest bodies of water near me are mostly muddy and polluted (mostly due to sedintation...but still!) and it just isn't a very pretty place. I happen to be an asthetically inclined person. I like to see beauty in most all natural forms. That is what inspires me.

Please don't take what I am saying to mean that where I live is not a great place for someone (lots of someones!), it just isn't my cup of tea and I find that I am usually rushing through life wishing for something that I have found on my many visits to the Bay (as well as Honolulu). I know that the Bay has its faults (no pun intended) and you and I both know that every place does, but one should always feel capable of changing their environment if it doesn't work for them.

I guess the answer to your original question (and you sound like you already know this) is that the bay area isn't worth it for you. I'm betting that many others have felt the same way and left, but many more have decided otherwise and stayed. It's a matter of perspective and only yours counts.

May you be blessed wherever you are.

[sliverbox]

Answer to Gizmo: I've lived ALL OVER the place. The east coast, west coast, south... you name it. Boston, NYC, Atlanta, Nashville, Berkeley, San Francisco.Out of all of those, the only place I really disliked was Boston, which interestingly was for much of the same reasons I currently have issues with SF: Expensive, kind of snotty, and pretentious. Plus the weather was COLD. I don't mind cold... but -10 is too much even for me.Nashville and Atlanta are actually really fun and laid back.Berkeley.... ahh forget it. By the way- I think I'd rather hang out with rednecks than most people. I have the best times shooting the bull talking nonsense and drinking beer.

And to baygirl... you need to realize that there is a BIG difference between visiting here... and living here... Make your choice wisely.

Again- my biggest problem with the area isn't the area per say. It's the economics. But this whole housing situation has been a giant liquidity bubble that will very likely implode over the next several years. If/when prices fall to levels that come more into like with fundamentals, then perhaps my opinion will change. Admittedly, I am bitter about the current cost situation. But so are many others here. So if you do arrive, expect to hear a lot of people with the same perspective.

Ultimately, everyone has an idea based on value which is tied to what is important to them. We're all going to be different. Good luck to you both in your future endeavors.

[mr2007]

Hey folks -- I have a very good friend, age 35, who works on Wall Street in New York and has made goo-gobs of money managing Derivatives and Exotic Options for one of the major international banks. He grew up in Michigan, went to college at Penn (Wharton) in Philadelphia PA, went to work in Manhattan after graduation, got a promotion and was an Expat in Brazil for over 2 years, retired (Yes -- Actually retired) to La Jolla near San Diego at age 30, got bored and moved back to Manhattan to work for his old firm again, travels to London UK at least twice a month....... AND after all that travel and all of his experiences, his ultimate goal is to retire again (by age 40) to where..... SAN FRANCISCO. He said he thinks it is the best city in North America.

I do well for myself financially. But personally, I couldn't see living and THRIVING in San Francisco (by a standard that I would regard as acceptable for my own tastes) unless I had an annual income in the upper six-figures (meaning $500K +) or I had literally millions in liquid (or near liquid) assets. Without that kind of money, my standard of living would decrease. My quality of life might still be high, but my financial standard of living would be affected. Also, though it is not the most wise decision from an investment standpoint or for certain tax purposes, I would want to buy my house in CASH if I lived in S.F. If you own your house outright with no mortgage, San Francisco's C.O.L is probably able to be managed.


I know a lot of people have made arguments that "home ownership isn't everything", "renting suits me fine" or "I am never at home, so I don't have to own where I live". I respect those points. Which is why I say... to each his own.

I will say that I do like S.F. more than I like L.A. -- if that means anything.