Is S.F. Really Worth The Cost? C'mon -- Really? (San Francisco: violent crime, neighborhood)

[dreamofmonterey]

Originally Posted by sliverbox

Is San Francisco really worth the cost of living?

That my friend is the $64,000- or rather $700,000 question. The answer will depend on who you ask. I can only tell you from my experience.

I grew up in the Southeast, moved here around 10 years ago, and after much rationalization concluded no- it isn't worth paying the current prices to live here. The reasons for coming to this conclusion are complex.

For starters, a "really nice home" will set you back more than 700k. In reality, 700k gets you what we back home would call a so-so home. 2 bedrooms and a mediocre yard.

What seems like an everyday plebian kindd of decision in the rest of the country is like a religion here. A house, the house, and nothing but the house. People save up for DECADES before they even get into a starter home. Even people making 6 figure incomes. People talk about houses day and night here. Dinner conversation seldom ever exists for general chit-chat. It always turns to the subject that's on everybody's mind: When can they afford a house? When will the prices fall? Should they invest in a house 2 hours away? Should they take out an IO loan like the neighbors? and so on.

To me, the main reason I fail to see the reasoning for buying here is because the prices are high via political manipulation. There was a large contingency of citizens in the mid to late 70's that revolted against the influx of people moving to the area in the 60's. Countless laws were created in many Bay Area cities and towns that either regulated growth(homebuilding) or restricted it alltogether. At the same time, Prop 13 was passed in 1973, which in turn created a legacy tax that was highly advantageous to the then citizens that passed it, but only helped to further limit the construction of new housing. So the result of all of this has been a severe limitation in the amount of available housing. Despite newer homes and lofts being built recently, the required supply is still pitifully low in regards to the amount needed. So in my opinion, home prices are high due to the lack of careful civic planning. I refuse to pay for poor decisions.

Secondly, the general feel of people who subscribe to the whole " The Bay Area is better than anywhere else" is relatively high. Just like NYC, people live in the area who just can't possibly imagine living anywhere else. I think many get too easily influenced and after they drink the funky kool-aid for too long, they'll do ANYTHING to stay here- even if that means going to extreme means to procure a house. It isn't a secret that many here are way over their heads in debt, pay close to 70% of their incomes on a mortgage, and have loans that will/are resetting.

At the end of the day, I only compare what I know which is what is the comparison of day-to-day living compared to other cities I have lived. My conclusion is that I have never lived anywhere such as the Bay Area where people slave, work, and almost kill themselves so hard for such a simple thing as a house. I have to wonder if many people actually step back and look at the big picture and take the blinders off running the rat-race. I have to say that the quality of life my parents have back home is about 200% better than if they were to be from here, where based on their salaries would be renting a small apartment versus the large house, pool, and apple orchards they have back home.

The funny thing is that I am one of the very few people who looks at the economic picture versus the romantic notions and questions the ethics behind the prices. You would be amazed at just how many people think that I'm crazy and that their 850k, crappy 1950's house was worth every single penny just to live in: " the most dynamic, forward-thinking, progressive city in the USA".

But sliverbox- NY is almost the same. If I was debaing moving to SF what would the difference be? If they really are happy there, then I guess it is worth the sacrifice.

sunny

[nathanjudas]

I don't think SF is worth it. My advice: People only from the Bay Area aren't the best to ask because they don't have much point of reference. I'd trust a transplant's opinion or someone who's lived in several places around the country. For now I live in SF, won't stay longer than a few years.

[Sandpointian]

As late as the mid 1990s, the nicer parts of the SF/Monterey Bay Areas remained affordable. Now, it is pretty clear that affordability is a stretch for most, especially for young, newcomers just starting out. Two professional incomes that are truly starting out, i.e. without inheritance or equity and with debts to pay down, can only get into a starter home in a not-so-nice neighborhood...and that with a Neg Am loan. What is so misleading is that so much of the rise in housing prices has been from dotcommers trading up after bonuses or selling of shares (Santa Cruz); Asians buying "access" to Silicon Valley (Cupertino/Los Altos); wealthy folks from the US and Europe who wish to live in a great part of the US; trust fund kids (try Los Gatos!); and Mommy & Daddy lending money the old fashioned way (w/o interest). For most, it is tough to make headway against such an alignment of forces.

But before I let you think I am bitter, let me add...

1) If I had huge IPO money, there are worse places than the SF mid & lower Peninsula (Burlingame down to Los Gatos). Or Santa Cruz?? Please, both are truly beautiful areas.

2) If I were a wealthy Chinese anywhere in Asia, or Korean, Japanese, Indian, etc. where a well-placed flat sells for millions, golf is a fortune, and life is a pressure cooker, California is cheaply-bought paradise, with access to world class schools and the frontier in technology jobs. Can you blame them?

3) If one is retiring from somewhere in the US or from abroad and had a nice chunk of change, then living in Menlo Park or Palo Alto would be a wonderful way to integrate into the Stanford community and keep my brain stimulated. Can you fault them?

4) Trust fund kids are always going to have their pick of the litter. Why not go where one could become an entrepreneur or angel investor and try to earn coin for the next generation on your own? Few better places than Silicon Valley.

5) As a parent myself, I hope to lend as much assistance to my kids when they are starting out so it would be the height of hypocrisy to rant against the behavior of loving parents.

No, there are many good reasons to live in the SF-Monterey Bay area, even at the prices we now see. However, there are also several reasons for why I would understand why people would not think it is worth it.

One, for those who are earning the life on their own dime and who have yet to score a major windfall, the numbers offer quite a different challenge, one that makes it wither incredibly difficult or terribly risky to make headway.

Two, traffic is just horrendous as compared to 10, 20 years ago.

Three, the area is far less laid back and friendly than 10, 20 years ago.

Four, the place is so much more crowded than 10, 20 years ago.

All these forces plus a few other personal ones having to do with our philosophy of life prompted a move to Sandpoint, Idaho, a jewel of a town in the Inland Northwest filled with people with hearts of gold. I could not be happier. Although I miss the land of my birth from time to time, what I have come to realise is that what I actually miss is the laid back, uncrowded, friendly, navigable, and affordable area of my youth, which is as much to do with the place as my youth! Sadly, neither that place nor that youth exists today. Our move away from the area was not as much financial as a concerted attempt to give our kids dimensions to their lives that are simply harder on them and us to realise in the Bay Area of 2007. I would not move back even if we got a huge windfall (although I would consider investing there is there is a huge price dip!).

All I wish for those on this board is that they have the opportunity to find happiness whereever they end up, as many of us have. There are so many places that constitute a "great fit," if only people would open their minds and hearts. I thank God each day that I did.
Best, S

[Milliano]

Personally I think Americans have a strange, irrational obsession with the idea of owning a house. (and yes, I am an American)
When asking "is it worth it" with regards to "cost of living", basically you're asking if its worth it to own a house in SF. Personally I would much rather live in a city that wasn't mostly occupied by single family homes... sprawl sucks. To me, complaining about cost of a house in SF is like complaining about the cost of a house in Manhattan. It's just completely unreasonable.

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by nathanjudas

I don't think SF is worth it. My advice: People only from the Bay Area aren't the best to ask because they don't have much point of reference. I'd trust a transplant's opinion or someone who's lived in several places around the country. For now I live in SF, won't stay longer than a few years.

But even among the "transplants", you'll get a huge variety of answers... I'm one, and would probably disagree with your opinions! So really, nobody can answer this question, since it's highly relative & personal. People will just have to consider our advice, and then draw their own conclusions if they move here. Right?

[nooneknowsmyname]

Originally Posted by nathanjudas

I don't think SF is worth it. My advice: People only from the Bay Area aren't the best to ask because they don't have much point of reference. I'd trust a transplant's opinion or someone who's lived in several places around the country. For now I live in SF, won't stay longer than a few years.

I am a transplant, who has lived in 3 East Coast city and 1 city in the South. As to whether SF is worth it, it all depends on what you want and are willing to sacrifice in order to have what you want. A few examples. You already know that this area is very expensive. Despite the cost, many people would never think of leaving because of the wonderful weather. So if a person is willing to be a renter, or have roommates, or go into debt to purchase a house because s/he simply can't imagine living some place where the weather isn't a nice, then living here is worth it. However, another person may decide that s/he she can live elsewhere and forego the weather for a place that is less expensive. Again, it all depends on a person's priorities and what the person is willing to sacrifice in order to get what s/he wants. Although I have enjoyed the time I've been here (16 years), like nathanjudas, I probably won't stay here.

[smarino]

Here's my 2 cents, based upon living in frisco on and off from 1980 to 2000. The weather is not good, despite what you read on these posts. I remember one July when the sun came out ONCE the entire month. It is nearly always cold and windy, and fogged in half the time. The crime has gotten much worse, and you could run into a very scary situation in even the best of neighborhoods. It is really random out there. There are many, many disturbed people on the streets, along w/ the usual homeless. The cost of living in even a fleabag hotel in the tenderloin is beyond the reach of a lot of poor people, and things have a desperate edge that was not there in the past. The Haight district is yuppie scum now, and the park there is a good place to get mugged. Chinatown is still neat, and Bart is great. Muni buses are unsafe and unreliable, besides being way overcrowded. It is impossible for such a monied place to provide venues for up and coming artists/poets/writers because they just can't afford the place anymore. Most of S.F.'s laurels rest in the past, and it has turned into some sort of downsized N.Y. thing. It still offers incredible views and good food, but living there is NOT like visiting there. The types of people that are there now, well, you may as well be in Seattle or Orange County. Nope, it isn't worth the money by a long shot, but S.F. has always had it's core group of starry eyed city boosters that are off in their own universe. I really would suggest going there for an extended time and making up your own mind. These posts are great, but in the end you will have to decide based upon personal experience.

[nooneknowsmyname]

As I said in my earlier post, only you will be able to decide whether it is worth the cost to live in SF. Everyone else has her/his opinion about that question, an opinion that you may or may not share. It doesn't matter what gizmo thinks, smarino thinks, nathanjudas thinks, or what I, nooneknowsmyname thinks. What matters is what you think. For in the end, it really depends on what you want, what you think, and only you can make that decision.

[FireballFL]

Originally Posted by mr2007

Is San Francisco really worth the cost of living?

I write those words not to in any way diminish the city of San Francisco. San Francisco is widely acknowledged a world class city. I remember traveling to S.F. on business in 2005 and having dinner at a Brazilian churrascaria called EspetuS on Market Street. During that visit, I recall saying that this is a pretty nice city. Overall, I liked the area. I was not impressed with the weather – a bit cooler of a climate than I expected (but I know it’s not Southern California, so I factored that in).

However, when I read that really nice homes will cost you 700K+ and that the cost of living in S.F. is 2nd to perhaps only Honolulu (even higher than New York City), I can’t help but ask the question – Is San Francisco so great – are the advantages so enormous, the city so spectacular, the lifestyle so fabulous -- that spending 55-65% of your income housing and the other inflated expenses are actually worth it (for someone like me who would not have a roommate to split expenses)? Is it worth it to stretch your money so thin when you could live in other great U.S. cities like Miami, Atlanta, Dallas, Phoenix, Chicago, Austin TX, or Denver at a fraction of the cost? Sure, S.F has an iconic status and very unique attractions (Golden Gate Bridge, Fisherman’s Wharf, Haight Asbury, Chinatown, The Presidio, mountains and hillsides galore – and there are many more to be sure).

But – given my acknowledgement upfront that San Francisco is a very nice city – can anyone help me rationalize why someone making $150K (in the top 1% of all Americans) would choose to stretch their income to its furthest limit in S.F. and live like someone only making $60K in another city when you could live in any of the other cities I mentioned above in relative luxury at that salary level? Help me understand and appreciate why S.F. is worth the money -- similar to how a resident who loves the city would. I want to see why, but right now I can’t.

I have a friend who grew up in San Diego who moved to Dearborn Michigan to work as a Manager with Ford Motor Company. He always talks about trying to move back to San Diego, even if it meant his money wouldn’t go as far. When I pressed him further on the topic, he said that regardless of the money, you can’t place a value on quality of life. But San Diego is a very laid back, sunny, almost tropical type of city -- almost like being on vacation everyday. I can see wanting to get back to San Diego and that lifestyle. San Francisco is very different and has a very different feel. Would my friend’s “quality of life” logic apply to those who favor living in S.F.?

Thanks in advance to all who respond. I would especially like to hear from anyone who has moved from S.F. to one of the cities I mentioned with a more reasonable cost of living and either loved the move or regretted moving out of S.F.

I would love to live in SF, but even getting rid of both cars, taking public transportation all around, and not paying insurance on either, I do not think that the ends will justify the means. I can not see myself living there. I think living there for me would be a "pipe dream".

Now Key West, that is where I want my life to be in about 5-10 years. I will always visit SF. Beautiful city, wonderful restaurants, some of the best shopping, and some of the world's most known landmarks.

[Milliano]

Originally Posted by smarino

Here's my 2 cents, based upon living in frisco on and off from 1980 to 2000. The weather is not good, despite what you read on these posts. I remember one July when the sun came out ONCE the entire month. It is nearly always cold and windy, and fogged in half the time.

In reality, SF gets a lot of sun, and especially in July. It's less windy than average in the USA. It's not "cold" unless you consider 60F cold. 50s in January doesn't seem very cold to me.

The crime has gotten much worse, and you could run into a very scary situation in even the best of neighborhoods.

Since when has crime gotten much worse? It has been fairly stable for at least the last decade. Crime can happen in any neighborhood in any city. This isn't unique to SF.

It is really random out there. There are many, many disturbed people on the streets, along w/ the usual homeless. The cost of living in even a fleabag hotel in the tenderloin is beyond the reach of a lot of poor people, and things have a desperate edge that was not there in the past.

Are you basing this on the year 2000, or the year 2007? I thought the housing situation for the poor has gotten better this decade, but I could be wrong.