Is S.F. Really Worth The Cost? C'mon -- Really? (San Diego: real estate, apartments)

[mr2007]

Is San Francisco really worth the cost of living?

I write those words not to in any way diminish the city of San Francisco. San Francisco is widely acknowledged a world class city. I remember traveling to S.F. on business in 2005 and having dinner at a Brazilian churrascaria called EspetuS on Market Street. During that visit, I recall saying that this is a pretty nice city. Overall, I liked the area. I was not impressed with the weather – a bit cooler of a climate than I expected (but I know it’s not Southern California, so I factored that in).

However, when I read that really nice homes will cost you 700K+ and that the cost of living in S.F. is 2nd to perhaps only Honolulu (even higher than New York City), I can’t help but ask the question – Is San Francisco so great – are the advantages so enormous, the city so spectacular, the lifestyle so fabulous -- that spending 55-65% of your income housing and the other inflated expenses are actually worth it (for someone like me who would not have a roommate to split expenses)? Is it worth it to stretch your money so thin when you could live in other great U.S. cities like Miami, Atlanta, Dallas, Phoenix, Chicago, Austin TX, or Denver at a fraction of the cost? Sure, S.F has an iconic status and very unique attractions (Golden Gate Bridge, Fisherman’s Wharf, Haight Asbury, Chinatown, The Presidio, mountains and hillsides galore – and there are many more to be sure).

But – given my acknowledgement upfront that San Francisco is a very nice city – can anyone help me rationalize why someone making $150K (in the top 1% of all Americans) would choose to stretch their income to its furthest limit in S.F. and live like someone only making $60K in another city when you could live in any of the other cities I mentioned above in relative luxury at that salary level? Help me understand and appreciate why S.F. is worth the money -- similar to how a resident who loves the city would. I want to see why, but right now I can’t.

I have a friend who grew up in San Diego who moved to Dearborn Michigan to work as a Manager with Ford Motor Company. He always talks about trying to move back to San Diego, even if it meant his money wouldn’t go as far. When I pressed him further on the topic, he said that regardless of the money, you can’t place a value on quality of life. But San Diego is a very laid back, sunny, almost tropical type of city -- almost like being on vacation everyday. I can see wanting to get back to San Diego and that lifestyle. San Francisco is very different and has a very different feel. Would my friend’s “quality of life” logic apply to those who favor living in S.F.?

Thanks in advance to all who respond. I would especially like to hear from anyone who has moved from S.F. to one of the cities I mentioned with a more reasonable cost of living and either loved the move or regretted moving out of S.F.

[sliverbox]

Is San Francisco really worth the cost of living?

That my friend is the $64,000- or rather $700,000 question. The answer will depend on who you ask. I can only tell you from my experience.

I grew up in the Southeast, moved here around 10 years ago, and after much rationalization concluded no- it isn't worth paying the current prices to live here. The reasons for coming to this conclusion are complex.

For starters, a "really nice home" will set you back more than 700k. In reality, 700k gets you what we back home would call a so-so home. 2 bedrooms and a mediocre yard.

What seems like an everyday plebian kindd of decision in the rest of the country is like a religion here. A house, the house, and nothing but the house. People save up for DECADES before they even get into a starter home. Even people making 6 figure incomes. People talk about houses day and night here. Dinner conversation seldom ever exists for general chit-chat. It always turns to the subject that's on everybody's mind: When can they afford a house? When will the prices fall? Should they invest in a house 2 hours away? Should they take out an IO loan like the neighbors? and so on.

To me, the main reason I fail to see the reasoning for buying here is because the prices are high via political manipulation. There was a large contingency of citizens in the mid to late 70's that revolted against the influx of people moving to the area in the 60's. Countless laws were created in many Bay Area cities and towns that either regulated growth(homebuilding) or restricted it alltogether. At the same time, Prop 13 was passed in 1973, which in turn created a legacy tax that was highly advantageous to the then citizens that passed it, but only helped to further limit the construction of new housing. So the result of all of this has been a severe limitation in the amount of available housing. Despite newer homes and lofts being built recently, the required supply is still pitifully low in regards to the amount needed. So in my opinion, home prices are high due to the lack of careful civic planning. I refuse to pay for poor decisions.

Secondly, the general feel of people who subscribe to the whole " The Bay Area is better than anywhere else" is relatively high. Just like NYC, people live in the area who just can't possibly imagine living anywhere else. I think many get too easily influenced and after they drink the funky kool-aid for too long, they'll do ANYTHING to stay here- even if that means going to extreme means to procure a house. It isn't a secret that many here are way over their heads in debt, pay close to 70% of their incomes on a mortgage, and have loans that will/are resetting.

At the end of the day, I only compare what I know which is what is the comparison of day-to-day living compared to other cities I have lived. My conclusion is that I have never lived anywhere such as the Bay Area where people slave, work, and almost kill themselves so hard for such a simple thing as a house. I have to wonder if many people actually step back and look at the big picture and take the blinders off running the rat-race. I have to say that the quality of life my parents have back home is about 200% better than if they were to be from here, where based on their salaries would be renting a small apartment versus the large house, pool, and apple orchards they have back home.

The funny thing is that I am one of the very few people who looks at the economic picture versus the romantic notions and questions the ethics behind the prices. You would be amazed at just how many people think that I'm crazy and that their 850k, crappy 1950's house was worth every single penny just to live in: " the most dynamic, forward-thinking, progressive city in the USA".

[sliverbox]

nadadsdsdsdssssssssssssssssssss

[Tallysmom]

[quote=mr2007;527530]Is San Francisco really worth the cost of living?QUOTE]

Well -- the answer is -- Life is what you make it. Or -- where ever you go, there you are.

I've known a few people that left here and hated where they went SO much they came back. And I've known people that left and didn't look back.

If you make decent wage this is a nice place to live. Lots of great restaurants, coffee houses, cool places to go.

But I'd bet any where you went, you'd have this -- it just may take some looking.

People do have this tendency out here to be booked 6 weeks in advance for friendly lunches, and this may or may not be because they have to scurry around working a few jobs to make their rent -- or it may be that's the accepted way of life.

Hubby and I certainly DON'T live that way. But it was a conscious decision.

To be honest -- we're chunking away money, looking forward to retirement at 50 in two and half years -- and getting out.

[osjo73]

Originally Posted by sliverbox

Is San Francisco really worth the cost of living?

um, that would be an unhesitatingly YES! It is worth it!

Granted, if you are a hermit, or if you love the corn fields, or the snowy hills or cannot live without 4 seasons (or is it three? I really dont know after living in Oakland my entire life! except now).

What I miss now that I am living in Dallas?

1. When I'm bored to tears on any given day (without regard to the season) I would jump in the car and be at the San Leandro Marina in 15 minutes and sit under a tree and read abook and watch all the families enjoying a picknick, jogging around the marina, rollerblading or bbqing. (Mind u did not have to worry about dog ****....not sure why, never thought about it much....but in DFW everyone has a dog, a big dog in their small apartments and wherever there is grass there is dog ****! but I digress.

2. Every sunday morning after early morning church service I would meet some friends at Lake Chabot regional park and hike up a few hills (translate, get lost in the Oakland hills)...and be back home by noon....

3. In the winter when I'm sick of the 55 degree freeze, I head up to lake tahoe in my car on a friday night after work....2 and 1/2 hours later I'm at a ski slope for non-advancers (translate, scared to death of the real slopes in Denver!)

4. During Indian summer, one day during the hotest week of the summar in September, take a day off and drive an hour to Santa Cruz Beach and boardwalk to escape the 90degee weather in the bay area to spend time in the windy 82degree weather on the beach after riding the big dipper rollar coaster.

5. And lastly, when friends and family come to visit, bug them with deciding on what they want to do/see because they cannot do it all in one weekend: fishermans warf, lombard street, pier39 & the seals, chinatown, Union Square, wine country, seafood restaraunts, alcatraz, Pacbell uh...SBC park, Golden Gate Park, Marin County hiking, Yosemite Park, Carmel and the 13 mile drive, Monterey, Golden Gate bridge, Filmore district, hole in the wall san francisco jazz clubs, 49er games, Berkeley, Free Earth Day Concert @ Concord Pavilion, JVC jazz concert, Betabreakers, Gay Pride Parade, chinese New Years parade, Gilroy Garlic Festival --ever tasted garlic ice cream??? ,California's Largest Annual
Multi-Cultural Celebration to Make
Spring Sizzle with Carnaval San Francisco
Festival and Grand Parade Over Memorial Day Weekend, Drive 2 hours to Reno and gamble your money down the tubes, Drive to Brentwood to see where the peach trees and black-eyed peas used to be grown.....DAMN! WHY AM I STILL IN DALLAS..........

Oh, yeah, i lost my tech job and couldnt afford my mortgage....Im going to bed now, Im depressed!

[osjo73]

Clarification!Wait a minute I did not write a bad word in my previous post. It rhymed with *loop* it did not rhyme with *hit*.....

[gizmo980]

Two simple answers for you, at least from my perspective....

1. YES! It's a fabulous city, and worth the sacrifices we make in terms of real estate... aside from home costs, the other expenses aren't that much higher than other places, and our salaries are generally above average. As I mentioned in another thread, my profession (librarianship) pays approx. 40% more than in other states. So yeah, it's definitely worth it in my opinion!

2. For me, this is home... I've been here on & off since 1983, when I was 7 years old, and most of my immediate family is in the Bay Area (everyone but my brother, who lives in San Diego). So just like I wonder how somebody can live in Florida, since I find their weather oppressive & the scenery boring, I understand that for some people it's home. When you grow up somewhere, the negatives are just a fact of life, and something that doesn't seem too weird or outrageous. Plus, I'd hate to be a plane ride away from my family, especially since my sister's having a baby in September... I grew up 3000+ miles from most of my relatives, and really missed having them in my daily life. I barely even know my cousin, who's only 1 month younger than me - and probably would've been a great friend if we'd grown up near each other. I can't wait to be an Aunt, and look forward to really being a part of their life.

[gizmo980]

[quote=Tallysmom;528522]

Originally Posted by mr2007

Is San Francisco really worth the cost of living?QUOTE]

Well -- the answer is -- Life is what you make it. Or -- where ever you go, there you are.

I've known a few people that left here and hated where they went SO much they came back.

That would be me. I left for about 9 years, to live in Oregon, Stockton and Lake Tahoe. I loved a lot about Oregon & Tahoe (hated Stockton), but something drew me back to the Bay Area... mostly because my family's here, but I also missed the beauty, culture, weather and excitement of SF. Started out by saying it was only temporary, and that I'd head back up north after grad school. Well it's been 5 years now, I'm done with school, and took a permanent F/T job in San Francisco. So it looks like I'm sticking around for a while!

[sliverbox]

1. YES! It's a fabulous city, and worth the sacrifices we make in terms of real estate... aside from home costs, the other expenses aren't that much higher than other places, and our salaries are generally above average. As I mentioned in another thread, my profession (librarianship) pays approx. 40% more than in other states. So yeah, it's definitely worth it in my opinion!

So the salaries in SF for a Librarian in SF is 40% higher than in other areas? Perhaps you aren't considering the fact that the cost of living in SF is about 70% more than just about anywhere else. My mom and aunt are both librarians, live in metropolitan areas in other states, make less than those in SF yet both own their own homes, will be retiring early, LOVE where they live, and have lots saved up. You will find via a quick search on the bls.gov web site that wages aren't exactly up to par with the cost of living in many expensive metros, but more than sufficient- albeit less- in other "less sexy" ones. I find the salary argument a poor substitute and outdated by about 10 years. In fact, many professions actually pay more elsewhere than here at this point, and yes- that means more monetarily.

A simple analogy: Average median income for SF: 80k. Cost of avg home: $720,000. Average median income for Raleigh, NC: 66k. Avg home price: $166,000. You do the math. The original post hit the nail on the head: even if you make a TON of money in SF, you will at the very best be living the same standard as an entry level middle class citizen elsewhere.

I understand that for some people it's home. When you grow up somewhere, the negatives are just a fact of life

So are you saying that if you grow up somewhere that has crappy living situations, then you might as well suck it up and deal with it? Interesting analogy. What I find really confusing about the Bay Area is that while people protest about wars, big government, and so on- nothing is ever done to improve living conditions at home. Housing prices are perhaps the biggest problem with this region.I'm surprised people aren't protesting every day about it with the same enthusiasm as the war. A careful restructuring of the way communities are built as well as an examination of legislation that makes building prohibitive would solve much of this problem. But in the years I've lived here, not a finger is lifted. Perhaps people can learn to tolerate negatives, but I would hope that eventually these problems would be challenged. It is the Bay Area for god's sake!

To the person in Dallas. Sorry that Dallas isn't EXACTLY like the bay Area. Stop trying to make it into somewhere that it isn't. Personally, I find Texas really fascinating and interesting.Jump in your car and explore it. I know I would. There are some incredible state and national parks there and some great cities that in my opinion are just as great or even better than SF, like Austin for example. So.. let it be Texas. It might make things easier on you taking the San Francisco sunglasses off.

And to all those that moved away and came back... I've noticed that Californians seem to only be aware or a very narrow selection of states to move to. WA, OR, AZ, FL, and NY are not the entire United States. There are 50 states in all of which only 5 or 6 are chosen by California relo's probably because someone told them how the above mentioned states were " just like" California. If you do move away, don't do it because you're wanting to go someplace cheaper. Do it because you WANT to. Otherwise, you'll just try to turn something into a place that it isn't which will only cause you frustration. I've been all over this country and trust me- there are many WONDERFUL places that many of you would probably be amazed that you never knew existed. Once you get to wherever you got, leave California and the Bay Area behind and appreciate the beauty around you.

[osjo73]

[quote=sliverbox;530351
To the person in Dallas. Sorry that Dallas isn't EXACTLY like the bay Area. Stop trying to make it into somewhere that it isn't. Personally, I find Texas really fascinating and interesting.Jump in your car and explore it. I know I would. There are some incredible state and national parks there and some great cities that in my opinion are just as great or even better than SF, like Austin for example. So.. let it be Texas. It might make things easier on you taking the San Francisco sunglasses off.
[/QUOTE]

u r sooo right! i will try very hard!