California: Liberal Experiament Gone Bad? (health insurance, credit, home)

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by John23

The California budget is a bigger ponzi scam than Madoff.

It amazes me....you squander all gains from the 90's, then get leveraged to the biggest real estate bubble of all time from 2002 to 2007, then when it pops, your state goes bankrupt? Then to compound the insanity, you're forced to cut essential services.

Surely *someone* in Sacramento must have known that real estate doesn't go up forever. What happened to a rainy day fund?

And its not like the state is unproductive, has no natural resources, has no demand. Truely a twisted form of economics.

Amen, brother!!!

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly

People who were born in California are leaving in droves as are semi natives (e.g. ones brought here as kids). People from other countries are the main source of inflow, with people from other US states being a distant second. This is the harsh reality that all the polyannas on this thread refuse to address. Why are natives and semi natives abandoning it? Need to face it folks, it's a leading indicator.

Yeah, I agree. Immigrants come here because it's still better than where they came from. But even poor immigrants from Mexico have found their way to other states. They've figured out that $7 an hour goes further in Iowa than $8 or $10 per hour in California.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by Motion

Here's the link to the full George Will article.

http://www.mercurynews.com/elections/ci_12280934

Thanks for the editorial. I agree with most of it.

I might add that a more throrough analysis is available in a recent Newsweek article, written by someone I'd guess is more liberal than Geore Will. Yet he comes to many of the same conclusions.

Understanding California's Crisis | Newsweek Business | Newsweek.com

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by hsw

To be fair, CA has ~10% inc tx; NYC is ~13%; Heterogenous, upwardly mobile, dynamic, entrepreneurial economy and society vs a more communist society w/little upward mobility but great lifestyle for the lazy and those who have inherited money (or have already made their money somewhere else)...classic CA/NYC vs Switzerland/Germany debate

Could you expand on what you mean by the "classic CA/NYC vs. Switzerland/Germany debate?

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

And, as I said, the police and firemen get much more generous pay increases and better benefits than the other unions. This happens year in and year out and often is not discussed in the media.

Now ya got me started, dammit! Who else here is old enough to remember when police and fire were respected, middle-class, blue collar jobs? People took them because they wanted to serve the public more than retiring early and "rich" because they could afford to do neither

Even before 9/11, public employee unions raised the salary bar to unprecedented hights under threat of service reductions. It's now gotten way out of hand. Police and fire in-line-of-duty funerals are multi-million dollar extravaganzas that put military funerals to shame, clog up traffic and give the stage to whimpering, simpering politicians who couldn't care less but want to be seen as aligned.

For the sake of full disclosure, not only am I a military veteran but also a former peace officer/policeman. I still find the excesses to be just that!

Oh, and, YES, it IS a more dangerous world out there, but still...

[BennyPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Tallysmom

I hear this all the time -- and I don't buy it. I have real numbers to back me up.

Husband and I are owner operators of a janitorial business. We pull in around 135,000. a year. We put away into retirement plans around 25K, which lowers our income to 110K a year, and our state taxes are running $1300 a year. That's around 1%.

And according to the tax codes -- we are in the highest tax bracket. And we're not cheating -- I made it clear to my accountant when I hired him at the start of my business that I won't stand for that. And made for a very non-sweaty tax audit in 2002.

Then you aren't telling the whole story.
The Calif tax rate for an adjusted gross income of $110,000 is 9.3%. Your total tax bill would have been $10,230

[Tallysmom]

Originally Posted by BennyPhoenix

Then you aren't telling the whole story.
The Calif tax rate for an adjusted gross income of $110,000 is 9.3%. Your total tax bill would have been $10,230

Nope -- I just pulled 2008 taxes and my fed AGI is 67739. And I owed 1350.00 in taxes.

Everybody figures it as a flat tax, and it's NOT a flat tax. You aren't paying a straight percentage X earnings. You pay a set amount in your bracket + a percentage of the overage of the minimum.

In other words -- my AGI of 67739 has Calfornia deductions and exemptions deducted from it and that made my CA taxable income 57434. So it's in the 51,088 to 70,920 range. I have to pay set amount of 1259.58 + 6% of the amount over 51,088.

Or use the Tax Table -- which my accountant did and the tax table states $1548 owed. With an personal excemption of 198 bucks that brought the the tax owed to 1350.00.

Still a far cry from the $5341 I'd owe under the way you figured it.

Thanks, by the way -- you made me get out my taxes and really read them suckers... so now I KNOW I'm right... and why.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by fizbin

The big problems affecting California finances all go back to Prop. 13, which was a Republican initiative. It has strangled California finances ever since. Add to that the spending required for non-discretionary programs and all of the subsequent initiative-based programs for which funding is mandatory but were passed with no related funding and you have the huge mess we are in.

The big problem with California is out of control spending with total disregard to even a little common sense. Major employers have fled if they had any connection to manufacturing... even "Green" companies such as the NUMMI plant in Fremont that employs 5000 people had to abandon expansion on land it already owned because of a family of burrowing owls which could have been relocated to the thousands of acres of public open space within a mile from the plant.

Prop 13, for those not living in CA 30 years ago only came into being because the goverment was totally unresponsive to the ever larger property tax burden being placed on captive property owners... it was akin to a game of chance each year when the tax statements arrived and only then did you have any clue of how much more you would have to pay...

The fact is Prop 13 gave some real power to the people by requiring a 2/3 vote to increase taxes above the 2% annual stipulated increase and the reassessment provision upon transfer... Prop 13 provides predictabiliy and that is a good thing...

The people of my city, Oakland CA, routinely pass tax increase above and beyond Prop 13 limits... from everything from Schools... now about 15k per student, fire, police, parks, street lighting, landscaping, fire suppression, ball parks, libraries, after school youth programs, etc... the effective tax rate on modest homes is nearly 50% more than the Prop 13 limit...

The Prop 13 limit was even lowered to a little more than a majority for school bonds... the property owners of CA are very generous and it's never enough

Prop 13 is not the problem... and I'm speaking as someone that bought my home within the last 4 years...

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by fizbin

It takes a while for the inequities in the system to come home to roost. If the guy next door to me bought his house before Prop. 13 I'd be paying about 100 times what he is in property taxes. This is not a complaint about how much I am paying - it is fair enough in and of itself (and I can guarantee you that I pay more than over 99% of CA taxpayers). But the state is losing a ton of money because of what my hypothetical neighbor is not paying.

Show me 2 identical homes on the same street where one bought today is taxed 100 times more than the one bought in 1977.... It can't be done...

The family I bought my home from built it in 1955 and they were paying $1200 a year in tax... Upon my purchase, at the height of the market, I pay just under $10,000... about an 8 fold increase.

My taxes would have to have gone from $1200 a year to $120,000 a year in your example...

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by clongirl

And how are we going to educate California's future work force? Are you suggesting just allow more of India's and China's population to come over in the future because we don't have enough highly skilled engineers/scientists?

Actually, most of the spending is going towards our prison system...And I can tell you that in my child's school (public), it is the parents that pay for supplies, art/science programs, in fact..a teacher here was prevented from being laid off because the parents stepped up to raise the funds.

Even at 15k per student, the public schools in my city are failing... how can private and charter schools in the same city turn out high achievers for less?

Clearly, money is not the deciding factor... my Father was a CA public High School Teacher till he left because he felt the teacher's union was no longer about the students...

Some of the top students are home schooled at a cost to the taxpayer's of next to nothing...