Entry-level software engineer in SV (Stanford: real estate, credit, elementary school)

[CyberShot]

Thanks for the insightful remarks everyone, especially Zeya!

Originally Posted by Nell Plotts

IMHO anything over a masters degree in SE is a waste of time and tuition unless you want to be an academic.

How do you reconcile this with what Zeya said about wishing he stayed for a masters? I'm with you on this point actually, from what I read online it does seem like a waste of time and money, and that the salary gain is minimal and not worth it.

[Nell Plotts]

Originally Posted by CyberShot

Thanks for the insightful remarks everyone, especially Zeya!



How do you reconcile this with what Zeya said about wishing he stayed for a masters? I'm with you on this point actually, from what I read online it does seem like a waste of time and money, and that the salary gain is minimal and not worth it.

If you carefully read what I wrote you will see that I was commenting on a program BEYOND a masters degree, ie a PhD.

[gnomatic]

Originally Posted by CyberShot

How do you reconcile this with what Zeya said about wishing he stayed for a masters? I'm with you on this point actually, from what I read online it does seem like a waste of time and money, and that the salary gain is minimal and not worth it.

As someone who is a working software engineer. I am with Zeya. From a future career point of view, I would've better off if I got a masters.

These days, in the big companies...entry level Software Engineer is with a M.Sc. in Computer Science or Computer/Electrical Engineering. Otherwise, you might be able to get in if you had an internship with the right experience, but you need still need a B.Sc. in Computer Science (NOT an "IT" degree, not associates degrees). Even with the right degree & experience, 95% of the time people get in through networking (of some sort).

And please note..by experience, I do not mean specific languages, O/S, platforms...or even concepts. I mean software development experience in a particular industry (i.e. finance, health care, telecommunications, games,social networking games, etc). That is why internship is important (gain that experience, and/or find which industry you are interested in).

I worked with ALOT of SE's along the way, I have worked with maybe FOUR SE's with only a B.Sc. I don't recall the last time HR send me a resume to review that only had a B.Sc.

Degrees doesn't matter as much in smaller companies, but smaller companies (especially startups) prefer self starters with experience. Personally, I find smaller companies the best places to learn, however, not all have the bandwidth or inclination mentor entry level SE's.

I work with several Ph.D's. None of them are pure "software engineers", though that is their title. They are highly specialized with degrees in physics & math. Some companies have separate research branches within. I wouldn't say it's not worth it, they are all people who truly love their research field...being a SE is secondary.

Do not neglect to "network" with your classmates. If it was anything like my school, people already separated into little "groups" before their junior year.... so it might be a bit tougher for someone who just switch majors. Through a serious of really weird circumstances, almost all of my classmates are now at the same (very well known) company, simply by one referring another, referring another...so on.

I notice you have not even mentioned why you want to be a Software Engineer, other than salary. I hope that is not the only reason you want to do this. It's not for everyone. People DO sleep in their office. It's very long hours. It doesn't always pay well. People often think SE = $$$, because it pays well then other people amount of education, but they really understand the intensity of the work. Real life software development is nothing like school.

I have seen people burn out within 10 years. I know one guy who left a very well paying job in a very well known company, in the middle of this recession to become a park ranger. Others left to open restaurants, be bakers etc...

[CyberShot]

Originally Posted by gnomatic

As someone who is a working software engineer. I am with Zeya. From a future career point of view, I would've better off if I got a masters.

These days, in the big companies...entry level Software Engineer is with a M.Sc. in Computer Science or Computer/Electrical Engineering. Otherwise, you might be able to get in if you had an internship with the right experience, but you need still need a B.Sc. in Computer Science (NOT an "IT" degree, not associates degrees). Even with the right degree & experience, 95% of the time people get in through networking (of some sort).

And please note..by experience, I do not mean specific languages, O/S, platforms...or even concepts. I mean software development experience in a particular industry (i.e. finance, health care, telecommunications, games,social networking games, etc). That is why internship is important (gain that experience, and/or find which industry you are interested in).

I worked with ALOT of SE's along the way, I have worked with maybe FOUR SE's with only a B.Sc. I don't recall the last time HR send me a resume to review that only had a B.Sc.

Degrees doesn't matter as much in smaller companies, but smaller companies (especially startups) prefer self starters with experience. Personally, I find smaller companies the best places to learn, however, not all have the bandwidth or inclination mentor entry level SE's.

I work with several Ph.D's. None of them are pure "software engineers", though that is their title. They are highly specialized with degrees in physics & math. Some companies have separate research branches within. I wouldn't say it's not worth it, they are all people who truly love their research field...being a SE is secondary.

Do not neglect to "network" with your classmates. If it was anything like my school, people already separated into little "groups" before their junior year.... so it might be a bit tougher for someone who just switch majors. Through a serious of really weird circumstances, almost all of my classmates are now at the same (very well known) company, simply by one referring another, referring another...so on.

You've been very insightful and, speaking of networking, could we maybe exchange emails, so I can pick your brain about the software industry?

I'm really at a critical point in my life, where I could decide to either be a physicist or a computer scientists. The reason I switched is simply because I feel computer science is much more far reaching and applies to almost any field, and is a better backup for success in life.

Originally Posted by gnomatic

I notice you have not even mentioned why you want to be a Software Engineer, other than salary. I hope that is not the only reason you want to do this. It's not for everyone. People DO sleep in their office. It's very long hours. It doesn't always pay well. People often think SE = $$$, because it pays well then other people amount of education, but they really understand the intensity of the work. Real life software development is nothing like school.

I have seen people burn out within 10 years. I know one guy who left a very well paying job in a very well known company, in the middle of this recession to become a park ranger. Others left to open restaurants, be bakers etc...

And I haven't even thought of the stress of the SE field. I thought it was the typical 40 hrs/week in front of a computer, a quarter of which is spent sending emails or other administrative tasks. Do you really think it's intense? So is that one of the "catches" of the high pay/job availability in SE?

[sonarrat]

Originally Posted by CyberShot

And I haven't even thought of the stress of the SE field. I thought it was the typical 40 hrs/week in front of a computer, a quarter of which is spent sending emails or other administrative tasks. Do you really think it's intense? So is that one of the "catches" of the high pay/job availability in SE?

My dad is a software engineer for Oracle - it's mega intense. In the earlier stages of his career, 60-70 hour workweeks were normal.

[80skeys]

Originally Posted by Nell Plotts

IMHO anything over a masters degree in SE is a waste of time and tuition unless you want to be an academic.

Google, Yahoo, and Apple pay top dollar to their PhDs.
Wall street also

[cardinal2007]

Originally Posted by 80skeys

Google, Yahoo, and Apple pay top dollar to their PhDs.
Wall street also

Google at least will only pay about 100-110k for PhDs straight out of college, and that is for top schools in CS. Most places will only pay about ~115k. Given that it takes about 5-6 years to complete a PhD with a pay of 24k-35k in that time, while people from those schools straight out of college with a BS get ~72k/yr I would say it doesn't make sense financially. If you're really interested in some avenue of research then perhaps a PhD is worth it, but if you're going to just get a job then it isn't a financial advantage. The difference in pay those 5-6yrs will probably outdo the difference in pay afterwards, considering those with a BS will have gotten a few raises by then.

[gnomatic]

Originally Posted by CyberShot

so I can pick your brain about the software industry?

You can send me a direct message by right clicking my userid. I will try to help.

Originally Posted by CyberShot

I'm really at a critical point in my life, where I could decide to either be a physicist or a computer scientists. The reason I switched is simply because I feel computer science is much more far reaching and applies to almost any field, and is a better backup for success in life.

It really depends on what you are more interested in...everyone is different.
There are ways to be successful (and frankly, what one define as success varies too) regardless of what you choose, but the path will be different.

It is intense, you spend hours staring at a computer screen (or 3), and then you have the admin stuff + meetings on top of that. Oh and you work from home and on your commute to work.
Everybody hears about the high pay and perks...they have no clue what is involved. Even family members & friends don't understand. I used to try and explain...but you see their eyes glaze over in confusion & boredom... and just give up. People have NO IDEA what goes on to make all those little applications/software you use everyday.

[80skeys]

So I know a person who's in charge of a bunch of engineers at Goldman Sachs. Out of curiosity a few years back I askd him what he recommends as a path to making money. His response was to go to school and get a Ph.D. He said he only hires PhD.s for his group.

So at least in that circle (which is probably where a person can make even more money than working in Silicon Valley), the Ph.D is necessary.


I'm not a Ph.D. I don't and never did have the desire to do it. But it certainly seems like there's a definite reward for someone with the tenacity to stick it out.

My own personal experience in 12 years as a Unix system admin is that I have seen very little financial benefit to working in IT other than it lets me live in a somewhat nicer neighborhood than I would otherwise be able to afford. Aside from that I never experienced the "awesome" salaries, bonuses, free Porches and other high-flying perks that people sometimes talk about. The only people who I have directly worked with who seem to have money to burn are managers.

[EdJS]

In our small team of software engineers all of us have Ph.D.s. Two in physics, one in math, and one in mechanical engineering. I'm not sure whether having a Ph.D. helped me get this job, but it certainly didn't hurt.