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" You really do come off as arrogant"
-I was sure some people will think that. I know its always a sensitive topic about skills. That's why my former colleague came up with the apples and oranges, and even he looked upset.
I respect my co-workers as people, and those of them who are knowledgeable I respet them as an professionals too.
But I just cant be so polite to say everyone is equal in terms of job contribution and skill set. Some of my colleagues (the nicer ones) were quiet impressed by my achievements, while other looked the other way. Especially because I have achieved similar or better things than they did, and I was 20 years younger. If I go to a job at a top tech company in the SV, then probably me and my colleagues would be about equal in terms of job contribution and skill set. Not so much here in Europe. I see my limitations and other people's as well. This view is not distorted as you assume. Also the requirements are I think lower here then over there so most people dont bother to oversatisfy them. There is a different attitude that I dont like (not in you, but in some people here in Europe), is that lots of engineers who have not learned anything in the past 10 years (didnt read a single article, didnt try anything new), claim that they are professionals anyway. I think that is the real arrogance. Probably they would be fired from your comapany (or never be hired), but here they are not fired but rewarded. The companies here dont push the tech limits too much, so peole without learning much can sail trough their career, maybe after they have passed through the first few years. Anyway skill is not appreciated here too much, only the age (official experience, like the credit score), and loyalty to the employer, nothing else really matters. Of course its not true about all employers and managers, but maybe half of those I worked with. For example I did several years of hardware design before diploma, some companies count that as 0-years experience in their experience-score, they only count years after that. It reminds me to the credit-score system, which can be only accurate for people with the exact same background. What about those people who were repair technicians for 8 years after graduation, then 2 years of entry-level design engineering? At most companies here they can claim 10-years of experience as a design engineer and hiring people belive them. Some of my student-projects were more complex and challenging than the best designs done by some of my former colelagues (often 10-20 years older professionals), still considered as nothing by some people. This is true, not my distorted view driven by arrogance as you suggest. Pointing these things out is I think not arrogance. Since I have graduated 6 years ago I kept my learning curve steep enough to gain even more skills.
Without the production line workers in the production plant our work would worth nothing (the company could not manufacture our designs, they could not sell anything and would not generate revenue), so lets equalize everyone's salaries who work for the same organization! I think this is what you are suggesting. Or, we can differentiate based on non-work related stuff? just like they did during the communism in Hungary until 1989.
"your skill set often grows exponentially and one has to constantly learn new things and stay on top of new technology."
-i am quiet good at this. My colleagues not so much. Unfortunatelly this is a skill that is not appreciated at all here in UK, some colleagues with obsolete skill set earn more than I do just because they were loyal to a company for 10-15 years. I expect more fairness in this aspect over there. They call it fairness the way it is here, I dont agree with them.
"Hardware Engineer at Cisco, average is around $100K."
-gardware engineer (takes the hw and installs some test software) or hardware design engineer (designs the new hw)? I think the skill set difference is huge.
The taxes should be better over there. Income tax here around 30%, sales tax is around 17%... Tax on petrol is 300%...
"getting the job require showing what YOU have done, and can do. You need to show you can learn, adapt, innovate"
-Im better at this than almost everyone I ever worked with. There will be no problem with this.
Often it doesn’t matter how good you are at your job, you can work hard, give results and still not be paid what you are worth, get fair treatment or have advancement opportunities. This does not apply to all companies but from my experience it’s not what you know but who you know and often the good’ole boy club is the norm. So if you think you are not appreciated now, don’t expect it to change just by moving to the US. I suggest you read company reviews on glassdoor.com.
"Hardware", it's split amongst individuals of various backgrounds and skill sets. For example I work with electrical engineers in the placement of components on the board level, I typically don’t get involved in choosing what components get placed on the board unless they are GPS, Cameras, Bluetooth, WiFi and etc, most of the other sub level components are all handled by them. Although thermal, mechanical and etc. requirements and end use fall back on me. If you are placing components at the board level and laying traces you are typically deemed an “Electrical Engineer”. Depending on the size of the company, this can be split amongst multiple people or done by one individual.
In the US, hardware development is split amongst electrical and mechanical engineers.
Keep in mind that VAT is already included in items you buy in the UK, over here the taxes are added on afterwards, some things are not taxed, but it depends on where you live and tax rates and what is taxed vary. Also we tend to drive more miles than people in the UK/Europe so gas prices tend to be subjective. Mass Transit in general is not even close to what you have in the UK or Europe.
Last edited by blauskies; 02-01-2012 at 07:49 AM..
So if you think you are not appreciated now, don’t expect it to change just by moving to the US.
In my actual job they appreciate my skills, but in my previous job they absolutely didnt. The problem with my actual job is the simplicity of designs, just like it would be at most companies here in Europe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blauskies
"Hardware", it's split amongst individuals of various backgrounds and skill sets.
I have done all of these: schematics (I call it hardware), PCB-layout, FPGA-logic (glue logic and bigger projects as well), board bring-up. In my actual job Im doing all of these, but I dont expect to do it all at a big company. I would revert back to schematics + gluelogic_FPGA + bringup, just like they do it at most places.
Without the production line workers in the production plant our work would worth nothing (the company could not manufacture our designs, they could not sell anything and would not generate revenue), so lets equalize everyone's salaries who work for the same organization! I think this is what you are suggesting.
No it isn't what I suggesting. Do I don't think salary should be equalize for all roles. I believe in market driven compensation. However I do believe that the what the production line worker is every bit as important. You seem to think your contribution is greater then everyone else, when it's just one small part in a large equation. You belittle the contribution of others, and talk negatively of your colleagues. You don't understand what those who have to work with you do, and yet think it's "easy". It takes a TEAM to to get something out the door. You can design the perfect board, if you can't get the product manufactured (low manufacturing cost), and sold, there is no revenue.
Are you aware that many in the other roles are often Electrical/Mechanical Engineers from top school themselves? Often they have DONE what you did, but they just chose to go another career path? Or that they might be doing what you are too, but have a background in one of those roles that you seem to think so little of?
The grass is always greener, the "problems" you encountered with what you perceived as your skills not being apperciated, you will find here too. It's not that different.
Is interviewing process different for H/W Engineers and then S/W Enginneers? Blauskies could probably give more insight on that. Is it different in Europe then in the U.S.? For most engineering positions you don't just interview with one person, your manager. You interview with your manager, and your colleagues. One after another. Interviews are usually full day. You don't know the background of the people you are interviewing with. And not all of them will be H/W Engineer, some will be people in other roles that you are suppose to work with as a team. You come off as arrogant to ONE person, there go your chances there.
Example: a friend of mine is interviewing for accountants at a HOT startup. They have S/W Engineers interviewing the candidates too. One was an excellent candidate, but for whatever reason, one of the S/W Engineers didn't feel that person was a cultural fit for the company. That candidate was out of contention.
"Fit", the ability to get along with others in a team environment, is the final factor in the selection process. You can be God's gift to engineering but if you can't communicate and translate your vision to others skills are next to worthless. Communication is a two way process, it is not 'telling'. If others in the organization are unwilling or unable to hear what you are saying your efforts will be relegated to the dust bin and work deemed of no value. Basically, do not brag or put down the accomplishments of others. An accomplished professional doesn't need to do that.
"Fit", the ability to get along with others in a team environment, is the final factor in the selection process. You can be God's gift to engineering but if you can't communicate and translate your vision to others skills are next to worthless. Communication is a two way process, it is not 'telling'. If others in the organization are unwilling or unable to hear what you are saying your efforts will be relegated to the dust bin and work deemed of no value. Basically, do not brag or put down the accomplishments of others. An accomplished professional doesn't need to do that.
I do agree with you that communication is the 2nd most important "skill" in most any industry as for the corporate world. The first is the ability to make others like you. I've been in the business for nearly 15 years now and have seen many incompetent people succeed because they were well liked.
Competence and excellence are secondary when you're dealing with insecure and sometimes lazy colleagues, which abound in the corporate world.
I find Bueno's boldness and arrogance fun and welcome. We need more. It's the lazy humble passive aggressive that bore me to death.
I do agree with you that communication is the 2nd most important "skill" in most any industry as for the corporate world. The first is the ability to make others like you. I've been in the business for nearly 15 years now and have seen many incompetent people succeed because they were well liked.
Competence and excellence are secondary when you're dealing with insecure and sometimes lazy colleagues, which abound in the corporate world.
I find Bueno's boldness and arrogance fun and welcome. We need more. It's the lazy humble passive aggressive that bore me to death.
Nobody wants to work with an *******. Even a highly skilled *******.
His boldness is an attribute but arrogance will get you drummed out of a team, lazy humble passive aggressive folks will be left behind. Both may be hired but neither will be assigned to the 'next project'.
..., lazy humble passive aggressive folks will be left behind. Both may be hired but neither will be assigned to the 'next project'.
I have seen too may of these "lazy humble passive aggressive folks " NOT being left behind but kept being promoted for 10+ years. In many places, at least here in Europe they will always be assigned to next project. Even if they screw up the previous one very much. And they can easily get hired at many places, all they have to do is to tell that they worked for 15 years at company-A and 9 years at company-B, job interview complete, hired, no more questions asked.
Not everywhere though... Obviously my main goal is not to end up in a company or department which is like this again. Once I did in the past, and I still have my scars... They hurt when people remind me that.
This does not make me an ass, nor arrogant.
If I get a fair role/salary in the team then I dont complain and dont keep talking about my and other peoples skills. I worked for 3 companies, at 2 of them I think I got the suitable role based on my achievements, but at one company I didnt. I think thats is the time for some action. First stage (1-2 years), talk politely to the managers a few times about adjusting my role and payment based on my achievements (end of year reviews for example). If that has zero effect then I get rightfully angry. So, first stage (1-2 years) focus on my achievemnts only, second stage mention other people's achievements as well (if the first stage has ZERO result for an extended time, so no other option left to resolve the situation there), third stage is quit. You might argue that Instead of the second stage opt for the 3rd one, but what if it means that you have to move to another country or the other side of the same country for the next suitable job. If you are ready to move then OK (still costs a lot with not much benefit), otherwise you will be unemployed since the only employer at the certain technology level/area in the region is the one you are about to leave. Of course in the SV its diffeerent, you have lots of optons without relocation.
There are lots of opportunities in sv for technology professionals and entrepreneurs. If you are looking for a target rich technology environment sv is the place to be.
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