Pension Reform At Work (San Jose, Gonzales: layoffs, income, living in)

[Lost Leaf]

Originally Posted by Phil306

San Jose Police Department losing some of its best after pension reform - San Jose Mercury News

"After almost 14 years with the department, Thursday was Pace's last day as a San Jose cop. She's trading in her sergeant's badge to become a patrol officer in Hillsboro, Ore. Pace is one of 79 officers who have resigned from the San Jose Police Department since 2011, including 30 this year."

I warned you people this would happen and everyone said, "Let em leave." Well, they are. Let the perpetual cycle of hiring new police officers, who will leave after a year or two, to get better pay and benefits, start. What the hell? It already is.

Let the new hiree's, who shouldn't have been hired in the first place, get the city into massive lawsuits and you all will foot the bill.

However, you got what you wished for. A murder rate which is steadily increasing.

Oh, by the way, its not just the police department. If you San Jose residents want to know more? Look into the Waste Disposal Department. They are operating and bare bones minimums. One natural disaster and San Jose will be up to its ankles in, well, feces. No other way to put it. Don't believe me? Call em and ask. They can't recruit new personnel, due to low pay and benefits.

Oh know, 79 officers left out of about 1200 what's that like a whopping 6%. In case you haven't noticed the current job market is not so great. I guarantee there's easily enough qualified people willing to fill those positions for less pay and benefits.

[Think About It!]

My biggest concern is if you watch what is happening in San Jose, Stockton, Sacramento and Vallejo you see a downward spiral effect. These are three cities within our region that are having this battle with pensions and lack of revenue etc. The police agencies have cut numerous positions and reduced pay in some. I think it does have a direct reflection with the raising crime rate.

Vallejo:

"There have been five fatal officer-involved shootings in Vallejo since May"

Emotions erupt at tense Vallejo meeting on public safety | www.ktvu.com

Stockton:

Homicides currently at 48 in 2009 they had 33. I believe it was even lower in 2008.

San Jose:

San Jose seeks answers amid violence - SFGate

Sacramento:

"After years of decline, authorities say crime is on the rise in the Sacramento area."

Crime rising in Sacramento city and county - San Jose Mercury News

[Think About It!]

Originally Posted by Lost Leaf

Oh know, 79 officers left out of about 1200 what's that like a whopping 6%. In case you haven't noticed the current job market is not so great. I guarantee there's easily enough qualified people willing to fill those positions for less pay and benefits.

At what standard? The qualified people will go to a better agency. It's common sense. Don't kid yourself.

That's also 79 officers who could have been investigating crimes instead of them not being there at all. 79 is actually a pretty big number to lose whether the ratio seems like it or not.

[Lost Leaf]

Originally Posted by Think About It!

At what standard? The qualified people will go to a better agency. It's common sense. Don't kid yourself.

That's also 79 officers who could have been investigating crimes instead of them not being there at all. 79 is actually a pretty big number to lose whether the ratio seems like it or not.

You know, a few years back I was once sitting outside a courtroom in San Mateo County listing to some police officers talking about how much their getting paid. One officer mentioned to another he should go work for Vallejo because they offered a higher pay than the agency he was currently with.

So going to those "better agencies" won't necessarily pan out in the long run. Cities all over are having the same finical problems that San Jose is experiencing. The bottom line is the current pension system is not sustainable.

Also, you act as if other agencies have tons of openings for new officers at higher pay, they don't. Common sense is letting market forces play out.

[bigdumbgod]

Originally Posted by Think About It!

The police agencies have cut numerous positions and reduced pay in some. I think it does have a direct reflection with the raising crime rate.

Hard to say how much cop reduction is influencing rising crime rates (surely doesn't help) vs. rampant, sustained unemployment. Sooner or later, people will do whatever it takes to get by.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by Think About It!

At what standard? The qualified people will go to a better agency. It's common sense. Don't kid yourself.

That's also 79 officers who could have been investigating crimes instead of them not being there at all. 79 is actually a pretty big number to lose whether the ratio seems like it or not.

I agree with both of your posts, but the thing is.....once you've committed to putting yourself into a huge financial hole, well....there will be collateral damage. And all of the things Phil and you brought up are examples of that.

It's very unfortunate, but it's also unavoidable once you reach a point of no return. It's kind of like taking out a 30 year mortgage based on having a huge income that you no longer have several years down the line. Once you wake up to the fact that your income is permanently reduced and you can't afford the mortgage, there is going to be suffering no matter what you do.

[1AngryTaxPayer]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

Believe it or not, I do have a little bit of sympathy for those having their pension benefits challenged/rolled back. (Regardless of what the courts decide, the benefits will be rolled back one way or another. If not the formula, then pay and other benefits will be rolled back instead, as has already happened). Even though I knew the rollback was going to happen, it's still a punch in the gut when it happens. I am less sympathetic to cops/firefighters because their unions were by far the greediest (Firefighters were worse than the cops, believe it or not).

That said, anyone with their eyes open had to know the pension benefits were not sustainable. As soon as the market crashed in 2008, I knew they were going to scale back the pension benefits....but I guess I am the oddball. A lot of other people seem to live in this denial drenched dreamland and you can't wake them up no matter what.

I somehow almost lost a good friend over all of this here in SD. We fished together often and he would constantly bring up how everyone else was a chump and how he was going to retire young making bank with full bennies. Then years later it hit the fan and when we fished he would say,"Give me back my pension" or other pension related remarks. Heck I even checked out if they had openings since it sounded like such a good deal as to be impossible. It turns out it was.

Let's just say we don't talk about "it" anymore.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer

I somehow almost lost a good friend over all of this here in SD. We fished together often and he would constantly bring up how everyone else was a chump and how he was going to retire young making bank with full bennies. Then years later it hit the fan and when we fished he would say,"Give me back my pension" or other pension related remarks. Heck I even checked out if they had openings since it sounded like such a good deal as to be impossible. It turns out it was.

Let's just say we don't talk about "it" anymore.

I know this will sound arrogant, and maybe it is...but when it comes to money my observation is most people are ignorant, complacent, dumb, selfish, and short sighted.

Oh well, to the extent I can, I am preparing myself for the possibility of complete financial collapse. In America and the larger developed countries more generally (U.S., Japan, France, Italy, Germany, U.K.), we don't have the stomach for the necessary reforms, and it really won't take that much adversity to throw us all over the financial cliff.

[Think About It!]

Originally Posted by Lost Leaf

You know, a few years back I was once sitting outside a courtroom in San Mateo County listing to some police officers talking about how much their getting paid. One officer mentioned to another he should go work for Vallejo because they offered a higher pay than the agency he was currently with.

So going to those "better agencies" won't necessarily pan out in the long run. Cities all over are having the same finical problems that San Jose is experiencing. The bottom line is the current pension system is not sustainable.

Also, you act as if other agencies have tons of openings for new officers at higher pay, they don't. Common sense is letting market forces play out.

You are right that some of those "better agencies" were really not. A smart applicant will research the city and its finances before jumping ship for a higher salary and compensation package that may not really be accurate. There are jobs out there for police officers and there seems to be more and more opening up too.

To move forward as a society we can not forget the past...(even though it seems we or "our politicians" don't know it and / or tend to forget). Remember how corrupt some of New Orleans PD was? That had to be relative to their pay and compensation. I'm not saying we're to that level but when does one draw the line in the sand?

[Think About It!]

Originally Posted by bigdumbgod

Hard to say how much cop reduction is influencing rising crime rates (surely doesn't help) vs. rampant, sustained unemployment. Sooner or later, people will do whatever it takes to get by.

True. I am sure there is a lot of things being factored in but I'm sure it's a real and major factor.

I feel people need to be constantly reminded and scared to not commit crimes and illegal acts. Now for the rest of us who don't commit them anyways, we have our own reasons not to commit such acts. I don't think the criminal element really has that fear any more. With the lax courts and prison etc, what's to fear?

For the unemployment argument it only goes so far for me. If someone is stealing food, like real food to feed their family...well I could see unemployment being a factor. I feel that usually is not the case. There is a whole lot of social problems involved in trying to figure out the crime trends.