U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California > San Jose
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
 
Unread 01-06-2013, 05:42 PM
 
12,616 posts, read 9,523,322 times
Reputation: 8412
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior101 View Post
Yes, but that is beside the point. Most people in the private sector don't contribute enough either, but you don't see companies holding onto pensions. I disagree that it is unfair to change the rules mid-stream. If the government can't afford their bills, the taxpayers shouldn't be gouged, so some government employees can be taken care of for life. Time for a bit of personal responsibility here.

Maybe I've grown up never thinking that the government would take care of me, and I've accumulated a lot in my 401k at a fairly young wage. The social security payment I'll possibility receive is just icing on the cake. If it doesn't materialize, its not going to kill me. We need others to behave in this same manner.
We had this very debate on a blog. We were discussing whether contributing to retirement plans should be mandatory. The majority of people simply won't save enough if you don't make saving mandatory. It's easy to say "too bad for them". Until you see it happening to friends and family members of your own. One way or another, the savers will always, always, always, bail out the non-savers or get to live with the stress of mass poverty around them, as is the case in Latin America.
Quick reply to this message

 
Unread 01-06-2013, 05:50 PM
 
1,005 posts, read 1,202,720 times
Reputation: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
It's easy to say "too bad for them". Until you see it happening to friends and family members of your own.
Oh believe me, I do have family members who haven't bothered to save enough for retirement. While I have compassion for them, its actually made me more hardened in my beliefs that pensions should be done away with. Mandatory contributions to a 401k is not a bad idea.
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 01-06-2013, 06:08 PM
 
1,015 posts, read 543,579 times
Reputation: 696
You can put all you want in a 401K plan, but if the stock market tanks you're screwed. A "defined contribution" pension plan provides no security for the future.
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 01-06-2013, 07:11 PM
 
1,005 posts, read 1,202,720 times
Reputation: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlite View Post
You can put all you want in a 401K plan, but if the stock market tanks you're screwed. A "defined contribution" pension plan provides no security for the future.
Its called dollar cost averaging over a long time horizon. Statistically, it is a pretty safe investment if you are willing to live with risk for a long time frame.
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 01-06-2013, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Santa Barbara
148 posts, read 100,867 times
Reputation: 587
I hope someone here can answer my question:

If a city files for bankruptcy, can it then be absolved of the current pension responsibility and re-negotiate a new pension plan? I ask because I truly have no idea how that would work.
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 01-06-2013, 08:40 PM
 
1,005 posts, read 1,202,720 times
Reputation: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Skies View Post
I hope someone here can answer my question:

If a city files for bankruptcy, can it then be absolved of the current pension responsibility and re-negotiate a new pension plan? I ask because I truly have no idea how that would work.
Not sure about cities, but its worked for airlines.
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 01-06-2013, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Dublin, CA
3,562 posts, read 1,420,824 times
Reputation: 3496
My point it simple: Good luck citizens of San Jose. You will lose in the long run. You THINK you have won; and yes, in the short term you have.

However, in the long run you will have paid out much more money they had you just agreed to collective bargaining. Just look at the numbers of officers who have left and the costs its going to take, to replace them.

In a few years, you will all be complaining.
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 01-07-2013, 02:24 AM
 
12,616 posts, read 9,523,322 times
Reputation: 8412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlite View Post
You can put all you want in a 401K plan, but if the stock market tanks you're screwed. A "defined contribution" pension plan provides no security for the future.
Neither does a defined benefit plan. DB plans invest in the stock and bond markets as well. If those markets tank, the pensions end up being cut back or the company or government agency declares bankruptcy to get out of paying the pensions. The City of Vallejo has already done exactly that. While not totally dumping the pensions, they have cut back in many other ways that still amounts to significant cuts in pension benefits.

There are no guarantees in life. It's a tough pill to swallow. But not swallowing it only makes matters worse.

Last edited by mysticaltyger; 01-07-2013 at 02:45 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 01-07-2013, 02:37 AM
 
12,616 posts, read 9,523,322 times
Reputation: 8412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Skies View Post
I hope someone here can answer my question:

If a city files for bankruptcy, can it then be absolved of the current pension responsibility and re-negotiate a new pension plan? I ask because I truly have no idea how that would work.
It looks like the results of the City of Vallejo's bankruptcy are as follows:

--Pensions can't be cut for current workers...but despite that, they can find ways around this by doing the following:

--Current workers have to pay a higher % of their salaries into the pension plans.

--Pay can be cut, which reduces the benefit levels over time (because pensions are usually based on highest year's pay)

--Retiree health insurance rates can go up significantly.

--Finally, new hires can be put into a pension plan with lower benefits. This doesn't bring any savings in the short run, but does in the long run.

Of course, these guarantees only help if you still have a job. Vallejo had quite a large number of layoffs of all employees, including police & firefighters.

Vallejo exits bankruptcy paying more for pensions Calpensions
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 01-07-2013, 02:41 AM
 
12,616 posts, read 9,523,322 times
Reputation: 8412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil306 View Post
My point it simple: Good luck citizens of San Jose. You will lose in the long run. You THINK you have won; and yes, in the short term you have.

However, in the long run you will have paid out much more money they had you just agreed to collective bargaining. Just look at the numbers of officers who have left and the costs its going to take, to replace them.

In a few years, you will all be complaining.
Ok, Phil. You've said it a gazillion times already. Most of us don't agree with you. Most of us think the damage was done long ago with the City promising pensions that were not affordable. You obviously seem to think the City is hiding some magical pot of money or that the taxpayers should just pay more in taxes for whatever the police union demands.

Most of the rest of us disagree with you, so just leave it alone already.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2011 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $74,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California > San Jose

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top