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Old 01-28-2013, 06:10 PM
 
6,805 posts, read 1,486,805 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeakandDizzy View Post
Certainly tax policies can be used for other goals, like keeping retired people in their homes, but there may be other consequences to society, such as the artificial restraint on workforce housing supply ( ie. why don't all of you old people move to Palm Springs/Las Vegas and golf so the young families have someplace to live close to Apple/Google, etc.).
Jesus Cristo.... Those are real people you are talking about, not artificial in any sense of the word. And they might be house rich and cash poor in actuality.

If you want their home so bad make an above market offer and tempt them to leave.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Southeast
247 posts, read 183,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senno View Post
Jesus Cristo.... Those are real people you are talking about, not artificial in any sense of the word. And they might be house rich and cash poor in actuality.

If you want their home so bad make an above market offer and tempt them to leave.

Senno,
I don't want anybody's house. I have one of my own and a chunk of land in the Southeast on which I am planning on building a home on in 2014. I have a mother, in laws, brothers and sisters, and nieces and nephews scattered about the Bay Area and the Central Valley, many of whom are homeowners. Some of the nieces and nephews are potential future homeowners. I understand these are all real people we are talking about. The point of my posts is that there are man made mechanisms in place that are causing the price of real estate to be higher in the SF Bay Area than it should be if it was more of a free market. The amount of land that is protected from development in the greater Bay Area is huge and Proposition 13 serves to keep retired people in workforce housing. I am not saying that we should build on every square foot of the greater Bay Area and I am not saying we should throw all of the old people out of their houses. I am simply saying that there are factors impacting the supply and price of housing that are artificial constructs and if you want to understand the issues surrounding the price of housing you must consider these things. Ultrarunner stated that housing is expensive in the Bay Area because of all the fees/permits, etc. needed to build. I agree with him that these fees are a part of the problem with high housing costs, but they are not the only issue. There are probably other factors involved that I am not aware of, these are just my observations comparing the Bay Area to other places in the U.S. that I have lived.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:31 PM
 
14,220 posts, read 26,484,274 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeakandDizzy View Post
Yes,
Anyone who owns a home in California under Prop 13 ( including corporations) is part of the landed aristocracy. The longer you own there, the larger your benefit. I currently don't live in California. My property tax rate is the same as anyone else in my neighborhood. We all pay the same rate. We all receive the same services. I did not pay for the roads in my community that were built 30 years ago, but I pay the same rate as my neighbors to build new roads, new schools and to maintain the current infrastructure. When I lived in California my property taxes were about $ 1400/yr and my next door neighbor was paying about $250/yr. I did not receive 5.6 times the services he received. Look, I'm glad my parents and in laws have the benefit of Prop 13. It has allowed them to live in their homes in one of the most beautiful places on earth. But it is not fair ( as my mother told me " life is not fair, get over it") that one group of citizens is singled out for benefits that others are not entitled to receive. As far as your neighbors go, I am sure they are all nice old people, but perhaps if they had to move out ( like all the old people in Long Island who move to Florida when they retire, because they can't afford the property taxes and they get a weather upgrade) you would have a bunch of younger neighbors with kids ( to play with yours if you have any) and you would all pay $4000-$5000/yr in property tax, instead of you paying $ 9000/yr and all of the old people paying $ 1200/yr. We all benefit from children, even those without them, who else to grow up, get jobs and pay for our social security? And, Oh... I also was born in San Jose.
Every property owned and subject to taxes is under Prop 13... many do not realize that everyone in the district pays the exact same rate... not a percent more or less...

I have heard so many times from friends and co-workers that they don't have Prop 13

I don't think for a minute my taxes would go down if my neighbors had to pay more...

It's like owning a car... the annual use tax is a percentage of the price paid.

Why should someone that bought an expensive car have to pay more to the State each year then someone that bought a less expensive car or someone that has owned their car for 30 years?

They all have equal access to the infrastructure... roads, highways, street signs, etc... (Well not totally equal because if you drive a Hybrid or electric you get to get a special break )

All Prop 13 does is base Property Taxes on the price paid plus an inflation factor.

This is much better because it adds a little predictability to taxes and it is not dependant on what some greedy fool paid when Real Estate was in the bubble... just imagine the turmoil back in 2005-2007 when you have been living in your home, paying your taxes and some fool with more money or credit then they know what to do with pays a couple of hundred more than any house has ever sold for...

Thank goodness for Prop 13 protecting folks from rampant, unsustainable speculators that bailed as soon as things got bad.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Southeast
247 posts, read 183,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
Every property owned and subject to taxes is under Prop 13... many do not realize that everyone in the district pays the exact same rate... not a percent more or less...

I have heard so many times from friends and co-workers that they don't have Prop 13

I don't think for a minute my taxes would go down if my neighbors had to pay more...

It's like owning a car... the annual use tax is a percentage of the price paid.

Why should someone that bought an expensive car have to pay more to the State each year then someone that bought a less expensive car or someone that has owned their car for 30 years?

They all have equal access to the infrastructure... roads, highways, street signs, etc... (Well not totally equal because if you drive a Hybrid or electric you get to get a special break )

All Prop 13 does is base Property Taxes on the price paid plus an inflation factor.

This is much better because it adds a little predictability to taxes and it is not dependant on what some greedy fool paid when Real Estate was in the bubble... just imagine the turmoil back in 2005-2007 when you have been living in your home, paying your taxes and some fool with more money or credit then they know what to do with pays a couple of hundred more than any house has ever sold for...

Thank goodness for Prop 13 protecting folks from rampant, unsustainable speculators that bailed as soon as things got bad.

Again,

I am no expert but where I live every few years your property is assessed for tax value. A few years ago quite a few people appealed to the tax assessor stating that the assessed value was too high. These cases were reviewed and many had the assessed value adjusted. Same thing with your car. You pay an annual tax to the county based on the assessed value of your car which decreases every year. Someone with a 10 year old car pays the same rate as someone with a 1 year old car, but a lower overall tax because the value of the 10 year old car is so much lower than the 1 year old car ( same make/model). This system is not dependent on what some fool paid, but on the assessed value, which in many cases has dropped. I just don't get why two houses both worth $1,000,000 should be taxed at two different assessed values. One at say $100,000 with $1,000/yr property tax, the other at say $800,000 with $ 8000 property tax. If they both put their houses on the market do you believe the guy who pays $1000/yr in taxes is going to say " Well, I am only going to sell my house for $200,000 because that is way more than the tax value anyway". No, they are both going to ask $1,300,000 and hope to get $1, 200,000. I understand that Prop 13 came into being because real estate prices went through the roof and people were getting taxed out of their houses. But I never heard someone say, " Hey freeze my taxes and when I sell in a few years, I'll freeze my price too". No, everyone wants their cake and eat it. Once you are under Prop 13 it is a win win. You are shielded from the tax increase that your new neighbors are experiencing but you get all the appreciation which has been standard fare for most of the past 40 years.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Southeast
247 posts, read 183,370 times
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When my mother dies I could decide to keep her home and rent it out, or move back in myself. Of course, as a minor baron of the State of California, County of Santa Clara I will assert my inherited property rights and expect taxation at her rate on this property as guaranteed me by Prop 58. After all it is only fair as I am a child of the landed aristocracy of the kingdom of California. If only Droit du seigneur was part of that Proposition, I would have it made ( just kidding).
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:01 AM
 
6,805 posts, read 1,486,805 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeakandDizzy View Post
When my mother dies I could decide to keep her home and rent it out, or move back in myself. Of course, as a minor baron of the State of California, County of Santa Clara I will assert my inherited property rights and expect taxation at her rate on this property as guaranteed me by Prop 58. After all it is only fair as I am a child of the landed aristocracy of the kingdom of California. If only Droit du seigneur was part of that Proposition, I would have it made ( just kidding).
Or you could sell it to one of those young Apple workers at below market rates, bucking the market trend.
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:09 AM
 
14,220 posts, read 26,484,274 times
Reputation: 8375
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeakandDizzy View Post
Once you are under Prop 13 it is a win win. You are shielded from the tax increase that your new neighbors are experiencing but you get all the appreciation which has been standard fare for most of the past 40 years.
This is my point... and everyone that owns a home is under Prop 13...

Maybe some need a little more patience?

I fully intend to be one of those with the lower taxes 35 years from.

For now... I know that I can afford it because I was able to buy the place.

As to the values falling... the county can take up to 2 years to decide on an appeal... they say it is very hard to determine the exact value and need time to accumulate date. Also, the home owner must pay a filing fee... last one I paid was $50 just to file an appeal.

As too cars...

I bought a 68 Mustang in my 20's... it cost $1100. The car is worth far more than that and no one from the State has come knocking on my door to appraise it.

Now, when "If" I ever sell, the clock will be reset and the annual use tax could actually be more than a new car... simply because it is based on the purchase price.
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:12 AM
 
14,220 posts, read 26,484,274 times
Reputation: 8375
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeakandDizzy View Post
When my mother dies I could decide to keep her home and rent it out, or move back in myself. Of course, as a minor baron of the State of California, County of Santa Clara I will assert my inherited property rights and expect taxation at her rate on this property as guaranteed me by Prop 58. After all it is only fair as I am a child of the landed aristocracy of the kingdom of California. If only Droit du seigneur was part of that Proposition, I would have it made ( just kidding).
Yes... Prop 58 which was not even in the works when Prop 13 was passed.

You will have to apply and the county will make a determination based on the evidence presented.

It is good you mentioned Prop 58 because I have met people that think all the Props like 58 are Prop 13...
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:23 AM
 
14,642 posts, read 12,605,926 times
Reputation: 10618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senno View Post
Jesus Cristo.... Those are real people you are talking about, not artificial in any sense of the word. And they might be house rich and cash poor in actuality.

If you want their home so bad make an above market offer and tempt them to leave.
As Weak&Dizzy explained in an earlier post, HE WILL ACTUALLY BENEFIT FROM CURRENT CA REAL ESATE TAX LAW due to an eventual inheritance which will keep the tax rates on the property at the same low rate. But unlike most people, he/she is not stuck in "me, me, me" mode. He is capable of stepping back and looking at the big picture to see that there is some unfairness to it (i.e. Just because Weak&Dizzy likes paying lower property taxes than his neighbors, he can see that doesn't make it fair. Imagine that!), even if he/she will benefit financially from the status quo.

Personally, I find it refreshing that some people can see beyond their own personal financial situation and see this type of unfairness. It's sad that it's so rare.
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:26 AM
 
14,220 posts, read 26,484,274 times
Reputation: 8375
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
As Weak&Dizzy explained in an earlier post, HE WILL ACTUALLY BENEFIT FROM PROP 13 due to an eventual inheritance which will keep the tax rates on the property at the same low rate. But unlike most people, he/she is not stuck in "me, me, me" mode. He can see that there is some unfairness to it, even if he/she will benefit financially from the status quo.

Personally, I find it refreshing that some people can see beyond their own personal financial situation and see this type of unfairness. It's sad that it's so rare.
I doubt we will ever agree... I do appreciate the opportunity the forums provide for lively discussion.
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