Why is this board so discouraging? (San Francisco, Oakland: mortgage, relocation, insurance)

[LJB99]

DM, that concept might work for a lot of companies within the industry, but certainly not all. Google, for example, would cave if its infrastructure and personnel suddenly became dispersed. There's simply no way to replicate the excitement, group interaction and close brainstorming that comes with operating from one common office.

The second thing is environment. I've been working from home since the age of 16, and I can tell you, it does not compare with the fantasy. The novelty and apparant conveniences soon wear off, and productivity declines immensely. There are certain classes of worker who are well-suited to a home environment (one being stay-at-home moms doing customer service or freelance workers working on small to mid scale projects)... but the vast majority of people - and I can tell you this from experience of having a great number of them - simply cannot handle the solitude.

It takes a great deal of personal gumption to avoid the temptation of the multitude of distractions abound in your own environment, and many simple find it inhumane not to be in close proximity to other people.

Any large-scale software project (like the one I intend to build) requires a central, fun, involved environment. Sure, there can be work-at-home *aspects* to the business - the occasional week away, or Friday afternoon or whatever else. But full-time it simply doesn't work... and to manage, its a nightmare.

Offshore and remote sourcing has its place, but in any major project, forget about it.

[DMenscha]

Thank LJB for the perspective, I guess I'm wondering why a software company wouldn't want to be outside of the Bay Area, not necessarily an individual code hacker. Again I'm just guessing that someone that writes code for a living would be more creative and effective if they weren't doing a 45 minute commute and where their salary would go farther than in the Bay Area.

[Terry O'Nolley]

I'm working at Lockheed-Martin as a software developer on a govt. contract and I know that I would be less productive if I worked from home because it is much more easy to walk to the next aisle and ask someone a question than it is to play voice-mail phone-tag. I need to get up from my desk to ask questions at least a dozen times every day. If I had to rely on voice-mail phone-tag then my output would drop drastically.

Maybe this is a side-effect of the project's management, but I can't remember a single project I have ever worked on (other than the free-lance projects I have gotten for myself) where that sort of instant communication wasn't necessary on a near-continous basis.

Working at home, you just don't have that.

Now, if you are self-employed or are lucky enough to be given a 100% complete set of specs to work on so that you can seclude yourself and just write code until you are complete then of course working from home would work great.

[LJB99]

DM, that's exactly the position I'm finding myself now - considering where to *base* the company in the first place.

Remember, the Bay area wasn't always a hot zone. It just sort of grew there. The reasons companies choose to form there, is because they consider it to be the heart of the action - in terms of talent, venture capitalists, entrepreneurialism, attitude, etc.

Prices have sky-rocketed in these areas simply because it became popular, not in spite of.

Of course, there are many other places with successful tech firms - other parts of the US, as well as other parts of the world. And it's on that basis that I'm considering somewhere else, too. NYC, for example, is on my radar - despite being costly, it's not *as* costly, and certainly could not be classified as "boring" - as tends to be the descriptor of SJ from some residents.

Another place on my radar is Austin, TX. It's cheap, the people are friendly, and it has a huge tech college. It's nothing like either SJ or NYC, of course, but then I am considering lifestyle and corporation from all angles.

As of yet, I've not arrived at any conclusions.

It's a tough call, for sure.

[worktolive]

Originally Posted by DMenscha

Thank LJB for the perspective, I guess I'm wondering why a software company wouldn't want to be outside of the Bay Area, not necessarily an individual code hacker. Again I'm just guessing that someone that writes code for a living would be more creative and effective if they weren't doing a 45 minute commute and where their salary would go farther than in the Bay Area.

One reason companies don't want to locate away from "the action" is that there is synergy, not just within a company but in the immediate environment outside the company. This is why cutting edge developers continue to live and work in Silicon Valley in spite of the ridiculous cost of living there. It's not about what happens at your workplace, it's about the ideas you get from a random conversation at the bar after work with someone who works at the company next door to you. Also, even programmers working at home want to be near others like them when they do lift up their heads from their computers.

[DMenscha]

Originally Posted by worktolive

One reason companies don't want to locate away from "the action" is that there is synergy, not just within a company but in the immediate environment outside the company. This is why cutting edge developers continue to live and work in Silicon Valley in spite of the ridiculous cost of living there. It's not about what happens at your workplace, it's about the ideas you get from a random conversation at the bar after work with someone who works at the company next door to you. Also, even programmers working at home want to be near others like them when they do lift up their heads from their computers.

I've suspected as much. I grew up in S'vale and played little league baseball with the Woz. The only software I've ever written was a feeble "hello world" in basic and a stab at C+ in a 2 inch thick book, so I really have no idea what the environment is like.

I guess I'm not sold on the synergy thing versus the think outside the box, but then again, the world doesn't revolve around my ideas I'll sticck to real estate.

[krudmonk]

Originally Posted by worktolive

One reason companies don't want to locate away from "the action" is that there is synergy, not just within a company but in the immediate environment outside the company. This is why cutting edge developers continue to live and work in Silicon Valley in spite of the ridiculous cost of living there. It's not about what happens at your workplace, it's about the ideas you get from a random conversation at the bar after work with someone who works at the company next door to you. Also, even programmers working at home want to be near others like them when they do lift up their heads from their computers.

This is very true. My dad has been in the industry a while and has worked with guys that suddenly broke off to found Cisco, Juniper, etc. People get ideas and they start their own company because there are enough people around to move them forward. There's such an exchange of ideas in the valley. Being isolated is very bland and predictable.

[icazares]

Coming back to the OP... I relocated from DC (Logan Circle) 3 months ago. I work in the farther north part of San Jose, between Sunnyvale and Milpitas. My wife works in the financial district of San Francisco so we split commutes and we live in San Mateo. With that said, I'm not an authority about San Jose, but I can give you my initial impressions of the Bay Area.

1. Housing in Washington DC, Arlington, Alexandria, Chevy Chase and Bethesda is MORE expensive than in almost all cities of the Bay Area. Of course San Francisco, Palo Alto, Atherton and parts of Menlo Park continue to be more expensive, but the fact that the Bay Area is too expensive should not bother much a transplant from DC, especially if you rent. To give you an idea of how the business works, I'm renting a property valued at $810K for $2,700 a month. In DC a property valued at $760K in Logan Circle would be renting for $3,400 a month. The properties cannot be directly compared (suburb vs. city) but in general, rents in the Bay are more affordable and total price of ownership is equivalent. That makes the case for renting in the Bay Area, because the gap between an equivalent mortgage and renting is wider.
2. Yes, great nature is just around the corner. The number of interesting places within 2 hrs of the Area is basically countless, and within 4 hrs you have even more. It's not just the famous landmarks, but some others I didn't know before I moved here, like Point Reyes. Of couse swimming in the ocean is not an option for a puetorrican (my wife) and a colombian (myself).
3. Meeting people has been a challenge to us. Well, we have a child and we do not have the time in any case, but it seems more difficult to meet people here. I believe this is because the metro area is huge. After all, in DC you know that the economy and the action is around DC, also the geographical center. In the Bay Area the economy is evenly distributed all across the Peninsula and the East Bay so people tend to stay where they work. Not everybody goes to SF for a Friday or Sat night.
4. Also, and this may be just a coincidence, we have noted that in DC there is more civism. We have seen that in the streets (driving is waay more aggressive here) and in the malls (we basically don't get any help with the stroller).
5. SF has transformed into a World Tier I city, and that's evident everywhere. Washington is still a Tier II city in my mind, so direct comparisons are hard to do. There are far more job opportunities in the Bay Area. Washington DC rotates a lot around government, non-profits and consulting for the government. The Bay Area is one of the most important economic hubs of the world.

PD: I like both places a lot.

I hope this helps.

[onyva4]

Thundersnow, at your age and not looking to buy a house, you are going to LOVE it in the Bay Area. Make sure you take advantage of all the outdoors activities around and have a ball. The ONLY bad thing in the bay area is the price of housing and that does not concern you. Yeah, you'll pay a big chunk of your salary in rent, but so what? Go to a REI store (or website) and check out their great week-end trips. You'll make friends at work easily because almost everyone in the Bay Area is from somewhere else and so is looking to make new friends. Good luck!

[novaman]

Thundersnow- I am now 44, but when I was 25, I was in your exact situation. I'm born and raised in DC but fell in love with San Jose on a trip out to visit my college buddy. I really wanted to move out there but in the end didn't do it mostly due to family reasons. My advice to you.....DO IT!!

I go out there still frequently, and all the negatives that you hear are really not negatives for someone coming from DC. You are used to the expensive housing, bad traffic, and workaholics, so what's the difference?

Do this while your young, otherwise you could end up like me, happy and content living in NoVA but always thinking about NorCal.