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Old 04-09-2009, 11:18 AM
 
2,339 posts, read 3,103,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treedonkey View Post
So, NERDY = INTELLIGENT ?
I beg to differ.
ok.
Let me be clear.
The school i went to was mostly asian. academic excellence was prized, rather than derided. I meant nerdiness in that having intelligent discussions and ideas did not make one uncool. THis promotes better thinking in general.
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:40 AM
 
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So here's the thing. This Asian backlash can be seen as being based on 2 primary claims.
(1) Math and science come at the expense of the other subjects. In order for this to be fully true, then being good at math and science is not only at the -expense of other subjects, but at an equal expense of other subjects. Perhaps someone can find the statistics, but I seriously doubt that students at high performing Asian-heavy schools where math and science scores are high, score significantly more poorly than in other subjects, such as writing. I don't think this claim is very valid in general and looking at my classmates find it to be true in my personal experience.
(2) The claim that holds a little more water, and the claim most likely being posited here, is that there is a cultural change from what the kids are comfortable or should be in. I understand this claim a little more. However, when applying it to specific situations, such as Asian-heavy school there are two issues:
(a) It implies that schools doing better at math and science, do so at an equal drop in performance in other subjects, such as writing. Perhaps statistics can be found on this, but I'll just say that my anecdotes and personal experience finds this to be untrue. Many of my classmates did well in other subjects and were successful in a variety of jobs. Was there an over-emphasis on business and computer science? Possibly. Or perhaps there's an under-emphasis elsewhere. Regardless, kids I knew were successful at a variety of jobs, from mechanic to photographer to yes, electrical engineer.

Last edited by bluebeard; 04-09-2009 at 12:10 PM..
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:03 PM
 
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Ok, my computer had an issue. I continue:
I wanted to continue on the last issue, that I realize it is difficult, and largely impossible to know what is really best for your child. Children often can't know or communicate what is best for them, and what other tools does a parent have than his/her own experiences? Information can be located, but it is more often than not located to support previous views, rather than discover something new. I'm just stating that I realize its difficult to raise a child, but this difficulty and percieved problems and solutions often magnify rather than attenuate problems.
(b) On the other hand this implies that children in Asian-heavy schools have generally poorer social lives.
I would argue, perhaps this has a grain of truth, but that most US schools go to far the other way: acceptance of a mediocre student. And also that any upper-middle class, well-rated public school has these problems. And that any upper-middle class immigrant population from any continent holds these beliefs, because this is how immigrants become successful today. The story of arriving with no education and a quarter in your pocket to become a success is largely in the past. Education is of prime importance.
I would also say lack of child freedom is nationwide as well. Rarely are children playing on the streets anymore. Playtime is structured, rather than just hanging out with your friends. Pre-school is seen more as a time to be taught skills, rather than explore social abilities. There is a global race for success going on, and the increased pressure is across the board. This does not mean I agree with kids not having any free unstructured, unpressured time to be kids, but just that it is universally true, especially at any school that is an upper-middle class top-rated one in an area with high property values. You'd be just as well off looking at high SAT scores, high college attendance rates, and high property values to predict pressure cooker schools.

My main point is that a public claim was made, and in a rather condescending and insulting tone, about a race and culture, which has values that I agree with to some extent. One person's extreme is another persons moderate.
And that by blowing these perceived issues out of proportion people are actually part of the problem and exacerbate them. Thus, just as race itself, social perception becomes reality.
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:18 PM
 
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I'll add a very important
(c) There is an implication that division in Asian-heavy districts are larger than others. I understand the problems when being surrounded by others who are far better or more obsessed with something than you are. Especially when you are a child, it can create a caste-mentality, where "school is good for these other kids, but I suck at it". But this happens in the social structure of every school. Is it better that at other schools the caste is based on "she's hot and I'm ugly. I can't compete with her", or other social divisions? High school is a caste-based place. I will restate that I actually feel my experience in an Asian-heavy school was less cliquish than what I hear from others. And god, if TV was remotely true I would have killed myself, what with the cool "jocks" and uncool "nerds" and such. Those divisions somewhat existed, but just didn't seem as strong. People from different backgrounds kept in touch and my best friends are from different backgrounds than me. I consider it a strength and increased my understanding of others.
This claim is based on the claim that division,exclusion, and overall social pressure is larger in Asian-heavy schools than in other upper-middle class high performing schools, or in other schools in general. I don't buy it. Especially if adults didn't spend so much time obsessing on it. Again, children are the mirror of society, and rarely are the source of its problems, but rather the raw expression of adult-created issues.
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
ok.
I meant nerdiness in that having intelligent discussions and ideas did not make one uncool.
Okay, I'll agree with that.

As for the those three posts above this one, you do realize that no one, besides you, is likely to take the time to read all that, especially when we already off-topic to begin with.

Care to distill it down a bit, into something we can read in a minute or two?
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treedonkey View Post
Okay, I'll agree with that.

As for the those three posts above this one, you do realize that no one, besides you, is likely to take the time to read all that, especially when we already off-topic to begin with.

Care to distill it down a bit, into something we can read in a minute or two?
Ok, now you're admitting that bashing and defending Asian-heavy schools is off-topic? I tried to make that point before, but you said it was relevant. It's ok to bring up the point, but not debate it?
Hopefully Cali-girl can take the time to read it, rather than demonize half of the world's population.
The point cannot be truly distilled because the point is that social forces are complex. But its basically a further explanation of what I've stated before: a school filled with Asian immigrants is likely not significantly more detrimental to a student's social life and mental health than any other school. And that children are adaptable and mirror the social issues of the adults, not the reverse.
I also gave exceptions to those who have children that are, say, already 16 years old and exposed to a culture change. Of course, any large culture change may be trying for someone moving during high school, an already trying time period in a child's life.
And also said I realize that high-pressure high schools can indeed be difficult. However, no more difficult than any other high-school, specifically no more highly academically pressurized than any other upper-middle class high school that performs well. And that overall, a higher pressure school is in fact, what this country might need to better its dismal school system.
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:29 PM
 
Location: San Jose, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
Education is of prime importance.
I would also say lack of child freedom is nationwide as well. Rarely are children playing on the streets anymore. Playtime is structured, rather than just hanging out with your friends. Pre-school is seen more as a time to be taught skills, rather than explore social abilities. There is a global race for success going on, and the increased pressure is across the board. This does not mean I agree with kids not having any free unstructured, unpressured time to be kids, but just that it is universally true, especially at any school that is an upper-middle class top-rated one in an area with high property values.
Parents might do well to find out ahead of time if what is going on in a given school district is indeed education, or a pointed training (or indoctrination). The old idea of "well-rounded" ought to be revisited in many districts, particularly in light of many corporate HR Directors' wishes that their potential recruits for lucrative jobs have people skills, reading/writing/oratory skills and other qualities that are not so readily testable or enumerated. All too many around here in Silicon Valley are learning that the hard way, with pink slips and no skills beyond the one thing they've been trained to do. Could have been different if somebody warned 'em about putting all their eggs in one basket when they were teenagers.

Well-rounded = good
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:37 PM
 
2,438 posts, read 5,104,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
Ok, now you're admitting that bashing and defending Asian-heavy schools is off-topic?
Yes, I'm admitting that the discussion of Asian-dominant schools is getting off topic now. At first it seemed relevant, but now it's probably better discussed on a new thread.

It's a worthwhile topic if discussed in a civil manner, but it will likely get out of hand, or else just buried, in here.
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:57 AM
 
2,339 posts, read 3,103,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdumbgod View Post
Parents might do well to find out ahead of time if what is going on in a given school district is indeed education, or a pointed training (or indoctrination). The old idea of "well-rounded" ought to be revisited in many districts, particularly in light of many corporate HR Directors' wishes that their potential recruits for lucrative jobs have people skills, reading/writing/oratory skills and other qualities that are not so readily testable or enumerated. All too many around here in Silicon Valley are learning that the hard way, with pink slips and no skills beyond the one thing they've been trained to do. Could have been different if somebody warned 'em about putting all their eggs in one basket when they were teenagers.

Well-rounded = good
I am of the opinion that its more about cultural ideas than more or less well-rounded. I don't find graduates from other schools, in my personal experience, to be more well-rounded than my classmates. Your well-rounded apparently isn't my well-rounded.
Now if you're talking about a state or nationwide idea of well-rounded, that's a different concept perhaps we can come to some agreement on.
Not to mention, most employees in the bay area, did not come from the bay area. Are these pink slips limited to graduates of those in Asian-heavy districts?
I challenge your thinly-veiled and condescending "Asian culture is less well-rounded than whites and others".
Given your statement that it is unmeasurable, it shows that it is actually a cultural POV and not neccesarily a fact.

Last edited by bluebeard; 04-10-2009 at 10:09 AM..
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Old 04-10-2009, 05:49 PM
 
Location: San Jose, CA
7,757 posts, read 6,814,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
"Asian culture is less well-rounded than whites and others".
When parents prevent their kids from associating with any other race/ethnicity than their own, it's a problem. Asian kids don't like this any more than anybody else, but the alternative (getting rejected by the family) ain't too appealing either. Goes the other way, of course, as racist whites have been doing this with their kids since the first settlements.

Well-rounded would, at the very least, infer that one is allowed to talk and hang out with others as they please. A whole childhood of observing firsthand the opposite of this is depressing, especially for the kids who feel compelled to obey the absurd wishes of their parents. So it isn't a knock on Asian culture, it's a knock on ultra-conservative Draconian crap foisted on kids by parents who believe that any kind of assimilation means their kids are going to turn into "stupid whites", and shut 'em away so they don't have any opportunity to do so. If this wasn't your experience, all the better for you. It sure as hell was mine. And sadly, it still goes on today.
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