What's the big city alternative to Santa Fe? (Albuquerque, Las Cruces: crime, unemployment rate)

[Howest2008]

Santa Fe NM is a World Class Resort and you are trying to find something like it....not doable...Las Vegas is a World Class Entertainment Capitol but that won't do , and everything else..Phoenix..Tucson..Denver..Portland..Salt Lake City..ABQ..EL Paso...Oklahoma City and Tulsa in a race CAR just won't cut it.
Your only option is to go across the Water's to HONOLULU HAWAII to find something that's unque AND RESORT LIKE.You May
Also Try NEW ORLEANS In Another Decade are two.

[vegaspilgrim]

I still keep checking back for several weeks after I post on a forum. I still can't make up my mind. It's getting to the point where it's an obsession and I'm literally losing sleep at night thinking about where I should live. Regardless about the logical facts of where I think I *should* move, I just can't stop thinking about Albuquerque. I can't just turn it down, say no thanks, and move on. I keep finding myself wanting to learn more and more. Now, regarding Tucson, some of the areas you have in mind that are Phoenix-like are probably areas like the Catalina Foothills, Oro Valley, the far east end of town, perhaps newly growing areas like Marana. But in terms of Albuquerque, how do you feel about areas like the far northeast Heights, Sandia Heights (some of the areas I asked about in the "where in Albuquerque" thread), Rio Rancho, some of the new development on the far west Mesa; is that stuff still extremely unique in your book or do you think there's a lot of cookie cutter, Phoenix-like development happening in Albuquerque too? Do you think Albuquerque is at no risk of turning into what you perceive Tucson to be like today?

Originally Posted by EnjoyEP

Hi vegas (if you are still checking in on this one) -

I was thinking a bit more about this the other day and had a couple of other thoughts for you on the whole "uniqueness" topic beyond my blatherings a while back in this thread...



***Now, obviously my prior nearly-Bible-length post on the "uniqueness" topic hit on most of the major "unique" points I was trying to hit on.

However, I just was struck on the head again this AM of why ABQ was so unique...

Take New Orleans. You cite that as another large US city that maybe comes close / 2nd to ABQ in the amount of times someone cites it as being such a unique US city.

I think that is probably a fair and an accurate observation. And I am guessing - educated guessing here - that New Orleans IS a very unique and distinct US city...I wouldn't know for certain as I have never been to NO. Yet, through reading, observation, conversation, etc., I have no doubt that NO is fairly unique compared to so many big US cities.

Having said that...New Orleans attracts non-New Orleans residents in DROVES! An NBA All Star game was recently held there, which attracted tons of tourists. Every year (outside of obviously the Katrina close-times), typical partiers have flocked upon NO for Mardi Gras and the related merriment. NO had hosted Final Fours and many a Super Bowl. Quite simply, NO - while surely in many ways unique - positioned itself quite successfully as one of the top tourist destinations in terms of pure numbers nearly every year; kind of a "party Vegas east" type of thing. While tourists don't define a city of course, such a steady and hearty dose sure does. Just like Vegas cannot be defined without considering the tourists and the strip, etc., you really can't consider the unique attributes of NO without factoring in the millions that have embarked on the city annually with their West Palm Beach / Las Vegas party aspirations.

I am not saying this is a BAD thing...I am just saying it is what it is. It surely takes much credence out of being an extremely unique city. Again, ABQ's uniqueness isn't necessarily a great thing...it is just a thing.

Most of the other towns you cited: Denver, LA, Brooklyn, Berkeley, etc. - so many people venture annually to them, know about them so well and tourist to them, I think that adds to the takeaway of intense uniqueness.

I guess the way I am thinking about it - and this is a loose and non-perfect comparison so bear with me - to me, if you want a unique Mexican city experience, you would be more needing to go to Chihuahua City or Monterrey instead of Cabo San Lucas or Tijuana or Cancun. All of those cities are truly Mexican too of course, but the ones with much less "tourism" factor certainly give you a distinct flavor from those that have so much tourism. Again, not a perfect example and my US cities comparison isn't equal to this one, but it somewhat exemplifies my point.

The one city that I would most tend to agree with you on...and I have always thought this...would be Tucson. I agree that Tucson does have much claim to being one of the more unique big cities in the US. I will fully cede that. For that reason, I actually really like Tucson.

Frankly, Tucson in many ways (in layout of the city, proximity to mountains, etc.), reminds me of ABQ.

I guess to me - and of course I have never lived in Tucson - Tucson still doesn't have that hundreds-of-years-old distinct ABQ and NM culture that still permeates through ABQ living so distinctly today...even to the most gringo of gringo and the most transplant of transplant. Tucson also seems to have just gotten bit by a fairly moderate dosage of "Phoenix bleed over" to where many parts of Tucson start to very closely take under by the folks that have moved from Phoenix (and likely originally from elsewhere). There seems to be more of an affluent snowbird presence in Tucson...again, nothing wrong with that...but just somewhat a place for folks that would've snowbirded to Phoenix but they wanted to be "unique" so their alternative was Tucson; problem is that it isn't terribly unique anymore with so many others doing the same.

I don't know. Again, I love Tucson and agree with you largely. I could easily live there. I prefer ABQ's temps, but whatever. Tucson is a great place to me. But in terms of uniqueness, while somewhat comparable, it just seems more bland/vanilla/culturally non-significant in many spots (not all of Tucson for sure) almost more comparable to a mini-Phoenix than an ABQ.

[EnjoyEP]

Originally Posted by domino

I find that El Paso is actually much more unique than Albuquerque . . . in both good and bad ways. If not for the Rio Grande, it would be hard to tell where the border is.

You are right indeed that El Paso is also one of the very most unique cities in the US - possibly even moreso than ABQ - I would agree with this. For better or for worse. I love EP (obviously), but many others certainly don't. It is polarizing. Very much like ABQ in that sense. Unique for sure is something most could agree on.

[EnjoyEP]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

But in terms of Albuquerque, how do you feel about areas like the far northeast Heights, Sandia Heights (some of the areas I asked about in the "where in Albuquerque" thread), Rio Rancho, some of the new development on the far west Mesa; is that stuff still extremely unique in your book or do you think there's a lot of cookie cutter, Phoenix-like development happening in Albuquerque too?

See, to me, it isn't the actual development itself. I actually (and I must duck the throwing rocks and chairs here at my head) kind of like the fairly stereotypical, cookie cutter new Southwestern development so common in these areas. It is new, clean, crisp, relatively maintenance free...to me, it looks pretty good. (I don't want to engage in a debate about this opinion here as I know many here would severely disagree with me on that, I am just setting the picture to where I am coming from more).

It is more being out and about amongst the people in those developments. Even amongst the transplants in, say, Rio Rancho, the vibe and feel and culture and pace is just different than it is in those areas of Tucson. In those areas of Tucson, that is where I get my "feels like a mini Phoenix" type of attitude - more of the people themselves and their attitudes, priorities, and ways of life.

For one small example, in those areas of Tucson, you'll *feel* money around in terms of lifestyles, cars, etc., - it is nuanced, but you can feel it. I guess yes, it seems more materialistic, plastic at worst and at best just more bland and generic, even though the house and yard of the folks itself looks similar to a new development in ABQ.

Overall, I am not saying that the Tucson way of life of those folks are *worse* or *wrong*...I am just saying that ABQ and Tucson would be quite different even in these similar-looking areas...and that the Tucson attitudes and ways of life in general would be more akin to what you'd find in Phoenix, Vegas, Denver, etc., than ABQ.

ABQeans even in these areas - in general! (surely I realize there are exceptions) - tend to remarkably blend into the whole encompassing ABQ nature like most any other city would not. It is a quieter, more family-oriented, proud, non-monetary-driven, engaged atmosphere. It is just hard to describe fully or articulate. But if you life there, I guarantee you'd know what I mean.

My parents would've hated to live in ABQ full-time. But they could tell within days of visiting just how unique it is. It truly is the *people* that ultimately makes ABQ so unique primarily, and their lifestyles, cultures, vibe, pace. Again, unique not being good or bad...just being unique. Can you find exceptions? Surely. But overall it is just unique.

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Do you think Albuquerque is at no risk of turning into what you perceive Tucson to be like today?

No.

I think there is indeed a major risk.

And I think to long-time ABQ residents and locals, that is their absolute greatest fear.

ABQeans are in this bizarre spot where they realize they largely live in such a gem area of the nation, it has to this point been largely undiscovered, but they recognize that quickly with the boom of the Southwest and now the overpopulation of Phoenix, Vegas, Denver, etc., ABQ is readily being discovered.

Partially, they do want the growth as they aspire in envy to some of the things of a bigger city (major league sports, etc.), but largely, they abhor those bigger cities' way of life and want to keep ABQ so unique as it is now, and recognize a huge influx of growth, etc., would really risk ABQ becoming "another Phoenix". In fact, I cannot describe how many times I have heard ABQeans saying "d***it all, I don't want to become another Phoenix."

That is kind of where I was referencing Phoenicians looking down on Albuquerque and mocking it. What they don't realize is that largely, Albuquerqueans loathe to do anything with becoming another Phoenix.

But it IS a major concern, and to me, even being away currently from ABQ, while I would be a hypocrite to discourage growth (as I was obviously a transplant too), I fear the dickens out of ABQ losing its uniqueness. In fact, I am amazed at how readily it has hung on to it despite its growth of the past decade and its pristine geographic setting.




One more thing...in my prior longer post where I was describing why most of those other cities are nothing near ABQ in terms of uniqueness, I neglected to point out the flip side - while the informed are more and more aware of Albuquerque and ABQ is gaining in national accolades and recognition and growth, the thing is that largely - ABQ is still an unknown in the nation, especially as a hot spot for tourists (although again, this is rapidly changing admittedly). ABQ isn't "sexy" yet, at least in the traditional sexy American way, for tourists and flockers. And that adds to its uniqueness. Fortunately, this is largely because it is in a similarly unsexy state - New Mexico. And to those that know and love ABQ or New Mexico in general, they wouldn't have it any other way. That way the greatest state / region in the US is still all to them.

[vegaspilgrim]

EnjoyEP, I can see that you have a true, deep love and understanding of Albuquerque, and you are making every effort to convey that love in words. I respect that-- and I think the fact that the city has residents (and former residents-- or maybe I should say in your case soon to be future residents again-- right?) who are so passionate about the place means a lot right there. Unfortunately, I'm not totally sure what it is you're trying to say-- maybe because Albuquerque for you is more of an emotion; one that's difficult to "explain." If I understand what you are saying correctly, Albuquerque's uniqueness is about people who are not materialistic at all, laid back to extremes not found in most US cities (dare I say similar to Mexico in this respect?), a large population with centuries-old historical roots in the state, the fact that the city offers a lot but isn't really a tourist destination (unlike Santa Fe), the fact that the city offers a lot but falls below the national radar screen, ... and really, really bad drivers-- all that on top of more identifiable factors like climate/scenery/food/architecture.

I think we will have to agree to disagree when it comes to Tucson, though. I've never lived in Tucson either, but I went down there quite often on the weekends during the last two years I lived in Phoenix. I've seen quite a bit of Tucson-- and much of it on bicycle (when I would load my bicycle in my car, drive down there and bike around Tucson all day exploring). I personally do not find Tucson, even it's wealthier areas, to be anything like how you describe it, as a place of showing off wealth. In fact, one of the biggest complaints people have against Tucson is how "poor" the city is. And the numbers back that claim up; the median household income and the median home value there is extraordinarily low by US averages. Even the most wealthy parts of Tucson have a kind of third world/ underdeveloped character (things like no paved driveways anywhere, overgrown desert vegetation everywhere-- which btw, I love, it adds to the rustic feel). And the most wealthy parts of Tucson are only 1/3, maybe even 1/4 of the entire city at most. The vast majority of the city has a solid lower middle class feel to it, yet in a charming, creative, natural way.

Tucson does not have any class-A malls like a Scottsdale Fashion Square or a Cherry Creek Mall-- or even anything like a Chandler Fashion Square or a Park Meadows. I won't speak for Albuquerque, but Tucson is not even close to being the same thing as a Phoenix or Denver. It's an entirely different animal. I've heard someone on the Arizona forum once say that Tucson is kind of known as a city of "underachievers"-- where every bike mechanic and ice cream store owner in the city has a phD degree, it seems like. That's an exaggeration, but I think they're right. I think the vast majority of Tucson really is a unique place, the essence of what the southwest is about. Tucson also has a pretty significant population who has lived there for centuries; that's why they call it the "Old Pueblo." It's population includes a small tribe/village of Yaqui Indians, a people who span the Sonora, Mexico/ Arizona border. And then just an hour south of Tucson you have Nogales. In fact, from my perspective Albuquerque looks more like a normal city with a modern freeway system, freeway interchanges, and clearly distinguishable business centers located off several major freeway exits (Uptown, the Journal Center, especially). Tucson, at first glance, looks like a city with no business. (Even though that isn't totally true-- they do have Raytheon there, to name one). But from what I can tell, Albuquerque actually has more large companies there than Tucson.

And this is not to take a thing away from Albuquerque or cut it down in any way... just want to give Tucson credit where it's due.

Originally Posted by EnjoyEP

See, to me, it isn't the actual development itself. I actually (and I must duck the throwing rocks and chairs here at my head) kind of like the fairly stereotypical, cookie cutter new Southwestern development so common in these areas. It is new, clean, crisp, relatively maintenance free...to me, it looks pretty good. (I don't want to engage in a debate about this opinion here as I know many here would severely disagree with me on that, I am just setting the picture to where I am coming from more).

It is more being out and about amongst the people in those developments. Even amongst the transplants in, say, Rio Rancho, the vibe and feel and culture and pace is just different than it is in those areas of Tucson. In those areas of Tucson, that is where I get my "feels like a mini Phoenix" type of attitude - more of the people themselves and their attitudes, priorities, and ways of life.

For one small example, in those areas of Tucson, you'll *feel* money around in terms of lifestyles, cars, etc., - it is nuanced, but you can feel it. I guess yes, it seems more materialistic, plastic at worst and at best just more bland and generic, even though the house and yard of the folks itself looks similar to a new development in ABQ.

Overall, I am not saying that the Tucson way of life of those folks are *worse* or *wrong*...I am just saying that ABQ and Tucson would be quite different even in these similar-looking areas...and that the Tucson attitudes and ways of life in general would be more akin to what you'd find in Phoenix, Vegas, Denver, etc., than ABQ.

ABQeans even in these areas - in general! (surely I realize there are exceptions) - tend to remarkably blend into the whole encompassing ABQ nature like most any other city would not. It is a quieter, more family-oriented, proud, non-monetary-driven, engaged atmosphere. It is just hard to describe fully or articulate. But if you life there, I guarantee you'd know what I mean.

My parents would've hated to live in ABQ full-time. But they could tell within days of visiting just how unique it is. It truly is the *people* that ultimately makes ABQ so unique primarily, and their lifestyles, cultures, vibe, pace. Again, unique not being good or bad...just being unique. Can you find exceptions? Surely. But overall it is just unique.



No.

I think there is indeed a major risk.

And I think to long-time ABQ residents and locals, that is their absolute greatest fear.

ABQeans are in this bizarre spot where they realize they largely live in such a gem area of the nation, it has to this point been largely undiscovered, but they recognize that quickly with the boom of the Southwest and now the overpopulation of Phoenix, Vegas, Denver, etc., ABQ is readily being discovered.

Partially, they do want the growth as they aspire in envy to some of the things of a bigger city (major league sports, etc.), but largely, they abhor those bigger cities' way of life and want to keep ABQ so unique as it is now, and recognize a huge influx of growth, etc., would really risk ABQ becoming "another Phoenix". In fact, I cannot describe how many times I have heard ABQeans saying "d***it all, I don't want to become another Phoenix."

That is kind of where I was referencing Phoenicians looking down on Albuquerque and mocking it. What they don't realize is that largely, Albuquerqueans loathe to do anything with becoming another Phoenix.

But it IS a major concern, and to me, even being away currently from ABQ, while I would be a hypocrite to discourage growth (as I was obviously a transplant too), I fear the dickens out of ABQ losing its uniqueness. In fact, I am amazed at how readily it has hung on to it despite its growth of the past decade and its pristine geographic setting.




One more thing...in my prior longer post where I was describing why most of those other cities are nothing near ABQ in terms of uniqueness, I neglected to point out the flip side - while the informed are more and more aware of Albuquerque and ABQ is gaining in national accolades and recognition and growth, the thing is that largely - ABQ is still an unknown in the nation, especially as a hot spot for tourists (although again, this is rapidly changing admittedly). ABQ isn't "sexy" yet, at least in the traditional sexy American way, for tourists and flockers. And that adds to its uniqueness. Fortunately, this is largely because it is in a similarly unsexy state - New Mexico. And to those that know and love ABQ or New Mexico in general, they wouldn't have it any other way. That way the greatest state / region in the US is still all to them.

[ziaAirmac]

To me, it's not so much that people are or aren't materialistic. It just seems that there's a large part of Albuquerque's population for which it just doesn't seem to matter. One of the things that just occurred to me is that for all the complaints of the middle class drying up across the country, Albuquerque has a huge middle class contingent. It's an easy city to be comfortable in on many levels. There's reasonable pay available and affordable housing. The weather is seasonal enough to be interesting without being extreme enough to hate. No matter where you live in the city, you're never far from a city park/pool/trail and nice restaurants. There's a plethora of outdoor stuff to do in the city, and if you're willing to drive, there's more than you can get to in a year within a couple hours driving circle.

I think it's this basic comfort level that most people feel here that takes the edge off of the interactions and attitudes. I can strike up a real conversation with anyone, anywhere in this town. It happens so often around here that people expect it, so if you walk in on an ongoing conversation between two strangers and you throw in an extra punch line at the end, everyone laughs. No one misses a beat. People just seem relaxed and engaged here. If you almost cut someone off with a cart in Raley's, you just smile and they smile back or make a little friendly quip. In Northern Virginia, I'd get a glare like "Who do you think you are? I've got to finish my shopping and still get these kids to soccer practice!".

If you're social at all here, you'll run into groups that have a mix of people that you just don't see in many other places. We've been hanging out with a couple my wife met through work. Mostly dinners out and Isotopes games. We got invited to their place in the foothills and our little Hoffmantown 3 bedroom starter would have made a quaint decoration in their great room, without blocking the panoramic view of the valley. When we left we joked:"Are they slumming or something?" But the truth is, it's exactly why they came to Albuquerque. Most people just don't care and even the nicest neighborhoods don't feel shut off or inaccessible (with the exception of Fortress Tanoan).

Anyway, it's a difficult quality to convey, but that's why it's unique. Couple it with the blend of weather, activities, cultural mix and food and you've got yourself an instant undiscovered gem. Look on the statistical sites all you want. This one isn't empirical. It's anecdotal. It has to be felt and experienced. I think it's why Albuquerque can be so polarizing. There's no 'one' thing. Two days after stepping off the plane, you just know.


...I got so busy on my soapbox, I forgot this is the Santa Fe side. Sorry guys! I know it's been a long wait for your own hangout, don't mean to tread on that. :-{

[ABQSunseeker]

Ultimately, Vegaspilgrim you'll make your decision on where to settle based on factors with the most personal impact.

I agree with you on Tucson. When I decided to leave NY, because I loved the Southwest, it came down to Tucson or Albuquerque where to relocate. Both were real likeable places. I chose not to stay in Scottsdale where I had a second home for a variety of reasons. My choice ultimately came down to factors like a lower cost of living and housing in Albuquerque (though I preferred Tucson's weather) as well as the stronger likelihood of my partner's finding good work in Albuquerque.

And you always have to know that your choice may not be the PERFECT city. There were always great places for me that I could imagine living in like Santa Fe (but too cool for me), or Santa Barbara (too expensive), or Honolulu (too remote), or Portland (too rainy), etc. For you there may be two or three final choice cities, and it may be that you will get a great job offer in one that will have the most personal impact.

So, again, good luck in your search and always keep the idea in your mind that no choice you make is irreversible.

[hopeful797]

i like tucson as well and think it is comparable to abq in some ways, but has a poorer, more rundown feeling to it (which i agree is part of its charm in an unusual way). that being said, i also believe tucson is influenced by PHX transplants and proximity--both in how it defines itself against PHX and how some of the PHX attitudes start to permeate at the margins. for this reason, i found people in tucson to be less friendly than people in ABQ or (especially) SF, but still much more friendly than people in PHX. though i happen to be pale skinned of irish-american, quaker descent, i also felt that non-anglo people were more welcomed and accepted and successful in their careers in ABQ than in tucson and more welcomed and successful in tucson than in phoenix. of course, YMMV and this is all purely anecdotal, but I don't like to be in environments where i perceive that some people have a rawer deal than other people and one of the nice things about new mexico generally is that it seem more welcoming and accepting of EVERYBODY, regardless of ethnicity or other personal traits. arizona not so much (though tucson, and especially the areas south of tucson, was the least problematic area of AZ to me in this regard). ABQ also felt more busily commercial than Tucson which seemed to have more a retirement community feel to it (but that may be just the part of town where i was staying). anyway, for me, proximity to SF from ABQ beats proximity to southern AZ towns or to PHX from Tucson so that would be the distinguishing factor.

[TXSweetPea]

Wow vegas, if you don't mind me saying, you sound like a great catch. What every girl wants. If only I was single.
If I was you, I would go with what you really want in your heart. If Santa Fe is where you wanna be, then you should. Don't settle , your young and deserve to be adventureous and enjoy life with no strings attached. Good Luck !!!

[Miami_Dan]

Fellow Sun Devil here originally from Massachusetts - I just spent a year driving 30,509 miles around the US (http://web.mac.com/rissling). The most immediate question everyone asks me is what areas impressed me the most. Loaded with innumerable answers, I respond that North Carolina, the Olympic Peninsula of Washington / Seattle, Southern Utah Canyons, Northern Peninsula of Michigan, and Santa Fe/Los Alamos/Taos.

I was completely blown away with the idea that I could live and work in Santa Fe yet strike out to Taos, Pecos Nat. Forest, Bandelier, Mesa Verde, Pagosssa Springs, Durango, Great Sand Dunes, White Sands, a quick flight to Phoenix or San Diego and or drive up to Denver. The ability to live in the more amicable Southern Rockies (temp & altitude) and still be close to high desert of ALBQ (which reminds me of Tucson); I could enjoy mountain biking, hiking, backpacking, skiing, Xcountry ski, 4x4, and the culture of Santa Fe as a historical and artistic community.

I am 40, I worked my butt off after college in PHX far to long to come full circle to realize there is a balance in life. If you really enjoy the outdoors, don't waste your youth in a cubicle or in a smog filled city.

I am here reading this site thinking of leaving the beautiful beaches of Florida to reside in Santa Fe. Thanks all. Great post. GO SUN DEVILS!